Managers and project managers are valuable roles and have important skill sets. But there's really very little connection with the role of software development that used to exist.
It's a bit odd to me to include both of these roles under a single label of "builders", as they have so little in common.
EDIT: this goes into more detail about how coding (and soon other kinds of knowledge work) is just a management task now: https://www.oneusefulthing.org/p/management-as-ai-superpower...
"I got into programming because I like programming, not whatever this is..."
Yes, I'm building stupid things faster, but I didn't get into programming because I wanted to build tons of things. I got into it for the thrill of defining a problem in terms of data structures and instructions a computer could understand, entering those instructions into the computer, and then watching victoriously while those instructions were executed.
If I was intellectually excited about telling something to do this for me, I'd have gotten into management.
> with AI that can happen faster.
well, not exactly that.
It's clouding your vision.
You verified each line?
See this is a perfect example of OPs statement! I don't care about the lines, I care about the output! It was never about the lines of code.
Your comment makes it very clear there are different viewpoints here. We care about problem->solution. You care about the actual code more than the solution.
> Your comment makes it very clear there are different viewpoints here.
Agreed.
I care that code output not include leaked secrets, malware installation, stealth cryptomining etc.
Some others don't.
Not sure what your point is exactly, but those things don't bother me because I have no control over what happens on others computers. Maybe you insinuate that LLMs will create this, If so, I think you misunderstand the tooling. Or mistake the tooling with the operator.
And also, the capacities of llms are almost besides the point. I don't use llms but I have no doubt that for any arbitrary problem that can be expressed textually and is computable in finite time, in the limit as time goes to infinity, an llm will be able to solve it. The more important and interesting questions are what _should_ we build with llms and what should we _not_ build with them. These arguments about capacity are distracting from these more important questions.
The impression I get from this comment is that no example would convince you that LLMs are worthwhile.
So maybe our common ground is that we are direct problem solvers. :-)
I guess that's the same people who went to all those coding camps during their hay day because they heard about software engineering salaries. They just want the money.
>If I was intellectually excited about telling something to do this for me, I'd have gotten into management.
Exactly this. This is the simplest and tersest way of explaining it yet.
Sometimes the problem needs building, sometimes not.
I'm an Engineer, I see a problem and want to solve it. I don't care if I have to write code, have a llm build something new, or maybe even destroy something. I want to solve the problem for the business and move to the next one, most of the time it is having a llm write code though.
I used Claude Code to implement a OpenAI 4o-vision powered receipt scanning feature in an expense tracking tool I wrote by hand four years ago. It did it in two or three shots while taking my codebase into account.
It was very neat, and it works great [^0], but I can't latch onto the idea of writing code this way. Powering through bugs while implementing a new library or learning how to optimize my test suite in a new language is thrilling.
Unfortunately (for me), it's not hard at all to see how the "builders" that see code as a means to an end would LOVE this, and businesses want builders, not crafters.
In effect, knowing the fundamentals is getting devalued at a rate I've never seen before.
[^0] Before I used Claude to implement this feature, my workflow for processing receipts looked like this: Tap iOS Shortcut, enter the amount, snap a pic of the receipt, type up the merchant, amount and description for the expense, then have the shortcut POST that to my expenses tracking toolkit which, then, POSTs that into a Google Sheet. This feature amounted the need for me to enter the merchant and amount. Unfortunately, it often took more time to confirm that the merchant, amount and date details OpenAI provided were correct (and correct it when details were wrong, which was most of the the time) than it did to type out those details manually, so I just went back to my manual workflow. However, the temptation to just glance at the details and tap "This looks correct" was extremely high, even if the info it generated was completely wrong! It's the perfect analogue to what I've been witnessing throughout the rise of the LLMs.
There is a strange insistence on not helping the LLM arrive at the best outcome in the subtext to this question a lot of times. I feel like we are living through the John Henry legend in real time
You can still do that with Claude Code. In fact, Claude Code works best the more granular your instructions get.
So best feed it machine code?
This distinction to me separates the two primary camps
What I mean by that: you had compiled vs interpreted languages, you had types vs untyped, testing strategies, all that, at least in some part, was a conversation about the tradeoffs between moving fast/shipping and maintainability.
But it isn't just tech, it is also in methodologies and the words use, from "build fast and break things" and "yagni" to "design patterns" and "abstractions"
As you say, it is a different viewpoint... but my biggest concern with where are as industry is that these are not just "equally valid" viewpoints of how to build software... it is quite literally different stages of software, that, AFAICT, pretty much all successful software has to go through.
Much of my career has been spent in teams at companies with products that are undergoing the transition from "hip app built by scrappy team" to "profitable, reliable software" and it is painful. Going from something where you have 5 people who know all the ins and outs and can fix serious bugs or ship features in a few days to something that has easy clean boundaries to scale to 100 engineers of a wide range of familiarities with the tech, the problem domain, skill levels, and opinions is just really hard. I am not convinced yet that AI will solve the problem, and I am also unsure it doesn't risk making it worse (at least in the short term)
Much of my career has been spent in teams at companies with products that are undergoing the transition from "hip app built by scrappy team" to "profitable, reliable software" and it is painful. Going from something where you have 5 people who know all the ins and outs and can fix serious bugs or ship features in a few days to something that has easy clean boundaries to scale to 100 engineers of a wide range of familiarities with the tech, the problem domain, skill levels, and opinions is just really hard. I am not convinced yet that AI will solve the problem, and I am also unsure it doesn't risk making it worse (at least in the short term)
“””
This perspective is crucial. Scale is the great equalizer / demoralizer, scale of the org and scale of the systems. Systems become complex quickly, and verifiability of correctness and function becomes harder. Companies that built from day with AI and have AI influencing them as they scale, where does complexity begin to run up against the limitations of AI and cause regression? Or if all goes well, amplification?
I deliberately avoid full vibe coding since I think doing so will rust my skills as a programmer. It also really doesn’t save much time in my experience. Once I have a design in mind, implementation is not the hard part.
I had felt like this and still do but man, at some point, I feel like the management churn feels real & I just feel suffering from a new problem.
Suppose, I actually end up having services literally deployed from a single prompt nothing else. Earlier I used to have AI write code but I was interested in the deployment and everything around it, now there are services which do that really neatly for you (I also really didn't give into the agent hype and mostly used browsers LLM)
Like on one hand you feel more free to build projects but the whole joy of project completely got reduced.
I mean, I guess I am one of the junior dev's so to me AI writing code on topics I didn't know/prototyping felt awesome.
I mean I was still involved in say copy pasting or looking at the code it generates. Seeing the errors and sometimes trying things out myself. If AI is doing all that too, idk
For some reason, recently I have been disinterested in AI. I have used it quite a lot for prototyping but I feel like this complete out of the loop programming just very off to me with recent services.
I also feel like there is this sense of if I buy for some AI thing, to maximally extract "value" out of it.
I guess the issue could be that I can have vague terms or have a very small text file as input (like just do X alternative in Y lang) and I am now unable to understand the architectural decisions and the overwhelmed-ness out of it.
Probably gonna take either spec-driven development where I clearly define the architecture or development where I saw something primagen do recently which is that the AI will only manipulate code of that particular function, (I am imagining it for a file as well) and somehow I feel like its something that I could enjoy more because right now it feels like I don't know what I have built at times.
When I prototype with single file projects using say browser for funsies/any idea. I get some idea of what the code kind of uses with its dependencies and functions names from start/end even if I didn't look at the middle
A bit of ramble I guess but the thing which kind of is making me feel this is that I was talking to somebody and shwocasing them some service where AI + server is there and they asked for something in a prompt and I wrote it. Then I let it do its job but I was also thinking how I would architect it (it was some detect food and then find BMR, and I was thinking first to use any api but then I thought that meh it might be hard, why not use AI vision models, okay what's the best, gemini seems good/cheap)
and I went to the coding thing to see what it did and it actually went even beyond by using the free tier of gemini (which I guess didn't end up working could be some rate limit of my own key but honestly it would've been the thing I would've tried too)
So like, I used to pride myself on the architectural decisions I make even if AI could write code faster but now that is taken away as well.
I really don't want to read AI code so much so honestly at this point, I might as well write code myself and learn hands on but I have a problem with build fast in public like attitude that I have & just not finding it fun.
I feel like I should do a more active job in my projects & I am really just figuring out what's the perfect way to use AI in such contexts & when to use how much.
Thoughts?
And accountability can still exist? Is the engineer that created or reviewed a Pull Request using Claude Code less accountable then one that used PICO?
The point is that in the human scenario, you can hold the human agents accountable. You cannot do that with AI. Of course, you as the orchestrator of agents will be accountable to someone, but you won't have the benefit of holding your "subordinates" accountable, which is what you do in a human team. IMO, this renders the whole situation vastly different (whether good or bad I'm not sure).
I test all of the code I produce via LLMs, usually doing fairly tight cycles. I also review the unit test coverage manually, so that I have a decent sense that it really is testing things - the goal is less perfect unit tests and more just quickly catching regressions. If I have a lot of complex workflows that need testing, I'll have it write unit tests and spell out the specific edge cases I'm worried about, or setup cheat codes I can invoke to test those workflows out in the UI/CLI.
Trust comes from using them often - you get a feeling for what a model is good and bad at, and what LLMs in general are good and bad at. Most of them are a bit of a mess when it comes to UI design, for instance, but they can throw together a perfectly serviceable "About This" HTML page. Any long-form text they write (such as that About page) is probably trash, but that's super-easy to edit manually. You can often just edit down what they write: they're actually decent writers, just very verbose and unfocused.
I find it similar to management: you have to learn how each employee works. Unless you're in the Top 1%, you can't rely on every employee giving 110% and always producing perfect PRs. Bugs happen, and even NASA-strictness doesn't bring that down to zero.
And just like management, some models are going to be the wrong employee for you because they think your style guide is stupid and keep writing code how they think it should be written.
The fact of the matter is LLMs produce lower quality at higher volumes in more time than it would take to write it myself, and I’m a very mediocre engineer.
I find this seperation of “coding” vs “building” so offensive. It’s basically just saying some people are only concerned with “inputs”, while others with “outputs”. This kind of rhetoric is so toxic.
It’s like saying LLM art is separating people into people who like to scribble, and people who like to make art.
These tools are just lazy shortcuts. And that’s fine, there’s no problem with taking the lazy way. I’m never going to put in the time to learn to draw, so it’s cool there’s an option for me.
I just take ire with pretending it’s something grand and refined, or spitting in the face of the ones who are willing to put in the work
We have services deployed globally serving millions of customers where rigor is really important.
And we have internal users who're building browser extensions with AI that provide valuable information about the interface they're looking at including links to the internal record management, and key metadata that's affecting content placement.
These tools could be handed out on Zip drives in the street and it would just show our users some of the metadata already being served up to them, but it's amazing to strip out 75% of the process of certain things and just have our user (in this case though, it's one user who is driving all of this, so it does take some technical inclination) build out these tools that save our editors so much time when doing this before would have been months and months and months of discovery and coordination and designs that probably wouldn't actually be as useful in the end after the wants of the user are diluted through 18 layers of process.
Took me a few years to realize that this wasn't a universal feeling, and that many others found the programming tasks more fulfilling than any challenging engineering. I suppose this is merely another manifestation of the same phenomena.
This is much less significant than the fact LLMs split engineers on those who primarily like quality v. those who primarily like speed.
We see almost no "AI let me code a program X better than ever before."
I'm just saying that LLMs aren't causing the divide. Accelerating yes, but I think simply equating AI usage to poor quality is wrong. Craftsmen now have a powerful tool as well, to analyze, nitpick, and refactor in ways that were previously difficult to justify.
It also seems premature for so many devs to jump to hardline "AI bad" stances. So far the tech is improving quite well. We may not be able to 1-shot much of quality yet, but it remains to be seen if that will hold.
Personally, I have hopes that AI will eventually push code quality much higher than it's ever been. I might be totally wrong of course, but to me it feels logical that computers would be very good at writing computer programs once the foundation is built.
For a long time in my career now I've been in a situation where I'd be able to build more if I was willing to abstract myself and become a slide-merchant/coalition-builder. I don't want to do this though.
Yet, I'm still quite an enthusiastic vibe-coder.
I think it's less about coding Vs building and more about tolerance for abstraction and politics. And I don't think there are that many people who are so intolerant of abstraction that they won't let agents write a bunch of code for them.
I think both approaches are okay, the biggest thing for me is the former needs to test way more, and review the code more, as developers we don't read code enough, with the "prompt and forget" approach we have a lot of free time we could spend reading the code, asking the model to refactor and refine the code. I am shocked when I hear about hundreds of thousands of lines in some projects. I've rebuilt Beads from the ground up and I'm under 10 lines of code.
So we're going to have various level of AI Code Builders if you will: Junior, Mid, Senior, Architect. I don't know if models will ever pick up the slack for Juniors any time soon. We would need massive context windows for models, and who will pay for that? We need a major AI breakthrough to where the cost goes down drastically before that becomes profitable.
I’ve always considered myself a “process” person, I would even get hung-up on certain projects because I enjoyed crafting them so much.
LLM’s have taken a bit of that “process” enjoyment from me, but I think have also forced some more “outcome” thinking into my head, which I’m taking as a positive.
> I’ve always said I’m a builder even though I’ve also enjoyed programming (but for an outcome, never for the sake of the code)
> This perfectly sums up what I’ve been observing between people like me (builders) who are ecstatic about this new world and programmers who talk about the craft of programming, sometimes butting heads.
That's one take, sure, but it's a specially crafted one to make you feel good about your position in this argument.
The counter-argument is that LLM coding splits up engineers based on those who primarily like engineering and those who like managing.
You're obviously one of the latter. I, OTOH, prefer engineering.
It's just the level of engineering we're split on. I like the type of engineering where I figure out the flow of data, maybe the data structures and how they move through the system.
Writing the code to do that is the most boring part of my job. The LLM does it now. I _know_ how to do it, I just don't want to.
It all boils down to communication in a way. Can you communicate what you want in a way others (in this case a language model) understands? And the parts you can't communicate in a human language, can you use tools to define those (linters, formatters, editorconfig)?
I've done all that with actual humans for ... a decade? So applying the exact same thing to a machine is weirdly more efficient, it doesn't complain about the way I like to have my curly braces - it just copies the defined style. With humans I've found out that using impersonal tooling to inspect code style and flaws has a lot less friction than complaining about it in PR reviews. If the CI computer says no, people don't complain, they fix it.
'Coders' make 'builders' keep the source code good enough so that 'builders' can continue building without breaking what they built.
If 'builders' become x10 productive and 'coders' become unable to keep up with unsurmountable pile of unmaintainable mess that 'builders' proudly churn out, 'bullders' will start to run into impossibility to build further without starting over and over again hoping that agents will be able to get it right this time.
Then force the builders to use those tools to constrain their output.
I’ve always said I’m a builder even though I’ve also enjoyed programming (but for an outcome, never for the sake of the code)
This perfectly sums up what I’ve been observing between people like me (builders) who are ecstatic about this new world and programmers who talk about the craft of programming, sometimes butting heads.
One viewpoint isn’t necessarily more valid, just a difference of wiring.