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Re:Free Online Education Is Now Illegal in Minnesota by njharman on Friday October 19, 2012 @07:49AM (#4673087)
When we stop being a for-profit society. Don't hold your breath.
Re:Free Online Education Is Now Illegal in Minnesota by nickik on Friday October 19, 2012 @08:30AM (#4673190)
Disagree. Its not a for-profit society problem.

If you give lawmakers the power to block things like coursera you do not have to wonder that the get lobbied to use it.

Its not a for-profit problem its a political power problem.

Re:Free Online Education Is Now Illegal in Minnesota by njharman on Friday October 19, 2012 @03:12PM (#4674991)
They only get lobbied because there is a profit motive. Also lobbing takes money and it only pays if you're making a profit.
Re:Free Online Education Is Now Illegal in Minnesota by nickik on Sunday October 21, 2012 @12:01PM (#4679944)
> They only get lobbied because there is a profit motive.

True. The only why we could get around this is if people only cared for the soiety and not themselfs. This concept was called "New Socalist Man" in the economic debates of the 1920 - 1950 but the simple true is that it is a utopian concept.

> Also lobbing takes money and it only pays if you're making a profit.

Lobbying has a return on investment like any other thing a company can do. The diffrence is that the profit that falls out of lobbying does not come from bigger costumer sadisfaction or rising demand, it comes from state privlages or less competition.

Re:Free Online Education Is Now Illegal in Minnesota by marknutter on Friday October 19, 2012 @08:26AM (#4673176)
No; when government becomes sufficiently small.
Re:Free Online Education Is Now Illegal in Minnesota by Reebz on Friday October 19, 2012 @08:34AM (#4673204)
No and no; when we are sufficiently globalized and companies are taxed (fairly) by all countries. In your example, France is pissed off they're not getting a slice of the billion dollar pie because Google sits in the US. Our archaic ideas of "nations" are tied to land masses - not a great partner to a distributable service that can be accessed almost anywhere near the speed of light.
Re:Free Online Education Is Now Illegal in Minnesota by mercurial on Friday October 19, 2012 @10:57AM (#4673772)
At the risk of derailing the discussion, it's my understanding that the US government is not getting much in corporate taxes from Google either, thanks to a well-established practice of tax-dodging by funneling profits into Ireland.
Re:Free Online Education Is Now Illegal in Minnesota by oleganza on Friday October 19, 2012 @09:56AM (#4673499)
Your archaic idea of taxes is what holds back productive efforts to be distributed wherever needed at the maximum speed.
Re:Free Online Education Is Now Illegal in Minnesota by erikpukinskis on Friday October 19, 2012 @09:04AM (#4673323)
When government is "sufficiently small" then conventional colleges will be able to just pay ISPs to block Coursera.

Cutting out the middleman! I guess government is inefficient.

Re:Free Online Education Is Now Illegal in Minnesota by icebraining on Friday October 19, 2012 @09:23AM (#4673389)
Why would customers choose an ISP that does such a thing?
Re:Free Online Education Is Now Illegal in Minnesota by pi18n on Friday October 19, 2012 @09:57AM (#4673507)
Because the theoretical government was too small to force even a duopoly, so one provider has bought all the wires.
Re:Free Online Education Is Now Illegal in Minnesota by jessaustin on Friday October 19, 2012 @12:59PM (#4674373)
In the USA, technologically unnecessary government regulation of the wireless spectrum is the only reason the wires confer any sort of monopoly. If the FCC didn't exist, we wouldn't all be forced to use 1940s tech on all non-wifi bands, and our local loop to our ISP would be wireless, fast, and effectively free.

Instead, we have Ma Bell, Part II. I don't see how an evil corporation could have brought about such a situation without the enthusiastic assistance of the state.

Re:Free Online Education Is Now Illegal in Minnesota by jevinskie on Friday October 19, 2012 @06:02PM (#4675574)
Please, leave the wireless spectrum to the mobile devices and use the effectively unlimited spectrum that you get with wires for non-mobile devices. Spectrum is a scarce resource that really does need government oversight!
Re:Free Online Education Is Now Illegal in Minnesota by icebraining on Saturday October 20, 2012 @05:21AM (#4676700)
Why couldn't competitors install more?
Re:Free Online Education Is Now Illegal in Minnesota by pi18n on Saturday October 20, 2012 @05:29AM (#4676708)
When they try, the monopoly lowers its prices until the competitors are out of business.
Re:Free Online Education Is Now Illegal in Minnesota by icebraining on Saturday October 20, 2012 @05:35AM (#4676717)
Why couldn't competitors enter the market after the monopoly raises them again?
Re:Free Online Education Is Now Illegal in Minnesota by xyzzyz on Friday October 19, 2012 @09:32AM (#4673420)
Why do you think they would have a choice? Compared to the situation in Europe, Americans don't really have much choice right now.
Re:Free Online Education Is Now Illegal in Minnesota by yummyfajitas on Friday October 19, 2012 @10:14AM (#4673576)
Because with a sufficiently small government, ISPs would not enjoy a government-mandated duopoly?
Re:Free Online Education Is Now Illegal in Minnesota by xyzzyz on Friday October 19, 2012 @12:44PM (#4674276)
...instead enjoying monopoly unencumbered by some silly competition law.
Re:Free Online Education Is Now Illegal in Minnesota by icebraining on Saturday October 20, 2012 @05:29AM (#4676707)
Why couldn't competitors enter the market?
Re:Free Online Education Is Now Illegal in Minnesota by mindcrime on Friday October 19, 2012 @11:38AM (#4673985)
Because with a sufficiently small government, ISPs would not enjoy a government-mandated duopoly?

BINGO! Give yummyfajitas a cookie. Government inhibits competition and innovation more than it helps.

Re:Free Online Education Is Now Illegal in Minnesota by mkopinsky on Friday October 19, 2012 @11:14AM (#4673863)
Because an ISP that takes payments from third parties to block content will thereby be able to provide lower rates to consumers.
Re:Free Online Education Is Now Illegal in Minnesota by icebraining on Saturday October 20, 2012 @05:33AM (#4676712)
Yes, and so people would be glad to choose that. And others would prefer to pay for the content (presumably, Coursera wouldn't be the only ones blocked), much like they do with almost everything else. Is there any market where only the cheapest can sell? I doubt it.
Re:Free Online Education Is Now Illegal in Minnesota by yason on Friday October 19, 2012 @08:52AM (#4673269)
We could just transform into being a "for society's profit" instead of "for-profit society".
Re:Free Online Education Is Now Illegal in Minnesota by tomrod on Friday October 19, 2012 @10:19AM (#4673602)
I like how that sounds. My only concern is philosophical -- who then sets the agenda? We wouldn't be able to implement democracy without the tyranny of the majority, nor could we exalt any one minority group without the same issue. At least with a for-profit society the motivations are clear.
Re:Free Online Education Is Now Illegal in Minnesota by saraid216 on Friday October 19, 2012 @02:32PM (#4674849)
Your philosophy needs a bit more development.

The first order of business in designing a democracy is figuring out how to mitigate the tyranny of the majority. Read the Federalist Papers. I wrote this a couple days ago: http://news.ycombinator.org/item?id=4658896

To answer your question, the answer is "Everyone." The problem is that while this is technically true already (that's what consent of the governed is), the purpose of democracy is to make it explicit and transparent so that it can be criticized and reacted to.

Re:Free Online Education Is Now Illegal in Minnesota by tomrod on Saturday October 20, 2012 @12:02AM (#4676325)
I can promise you my love of knowledge is bright and receptive. I've read the federalist papers and the writings of many who claim to be the intellectual successors of Hamilton, Jay, and Madison.

If only the US were a democracy instead of a representative republic! But, given the standard human condition, we still coalesce into tribes. Be it based on race, religion, hometown, shared career, you name it, we form blocs. These blocs then either innately or in response to other blocs seek to gain power (heck, that's what political science _is_, the study of acquisition of power, and it's far from a solved question). So the fairy dust solution of "everyone" being the minority represented doesn't really hold true in the real world.

Thus, given these constraints, I conclude a for-profit-society is more transparent and navigable than a profit-for-society. If one were to assume that everyone else lived a profit-for-society life, then one defector would be able to manipulate the entire society to their personal aims. Though I strive to live my personal life to a more noble ideal, I cannot assume everyone else will.

Your proposal is akin to the ideal anarcho-capitalists* have, in that states compete. As I understand the philosophy, judicial systems and police forces are private and distinct. Law is common-law, meaning it's not case based, but rather takes into account the accuser, accused, and the situation. The will of the court is then implemented via by a hired police force. The issue is then when courts and police merge horizontally and vertically. You then have a _de_ _facto_ state. It's unavoidable, and the answer is "Well, you obviously can't have a society where people are like that." This answer ignores the strategic human element. One cannot even call this behavior immoral, as it likely comes about with noble intentions.

Anyway, just some thoughts. I salute your goals.

*EDIT: anarcho-capitalists (ancaps), not socio-anarchists.

Re:Free Online Education Is Now Illegal in Minnesota by saraid216 on Saturday October 20, 2012 @03:54PM (#4678073)
> I conclude a for-profit-society is more transparent and navigable than a profit-for-society.

That doesn't follow, though. This is just as much fairy dust as the notion of everyone having a fair and equal say into "the agenda": not everyone is motivated by profit. You can pretend that they are and model them to be such, but you're inevitably incorrect.

Now, you could force them to be for-profit. But if you could do that, you could also force them to be profit-for-society. Why do the former rather than the latter?

> If one were to assume that everyone else lived a profit-for-society life, then one defector would be able to manipulate the entire society to their personal aims.

This is the problem of the demagogue, or "why direct democracy doesn't work". My ideas are an outgrowth of a proposal for education reform precisely because this is the most necessary step. The most effective countermeasure to the demagogue that we know of is a two-pronged response: (1) information saturation, such that any lies or half-truths are easily exposed and (2) critical thinking, such that the demagogue finds zirself useful only for thought leadership, but not thought determination.

And while you might imagine that #1 is being reached by the Internet, and I agree that it has made significant leaps and strides in the right direction, it is not remotely enough. The Internet does not reach enough people, and of the people it reaches, we have filter bubbles and echo chambers.

> Your proposal is akin to the ideal anarcho-capitalists* have, in that states compete.

Absolutely not. Please don't read in things I didn't say. I am not a Social Darwinist, and I'd prefer not to be lumped in with those who are. The paragraphs I wrote in my vision only outline legislative mechanisms; they do not consider changes in the judiciary or in the execution of law.

Re:Free Online Education Is Now Illegal in Minnesota by tomrod on Tuesday October 23, 2012 @10:39AM (#4688280)
You may not be a social Darwinist, but your ideas do suffer from the same weaknesses as anarcho-capitalism. See the above.
Re:Free Online Education Is Now Illegal in Minnesota by sejje on Friday October 19, 2012 @11:41AM (#4674006)
I think in practice the "for-profit society" does a hell of a lot to better itself.

I'm more scared of the world "for society's profit."

Re:Free Online Education Is Now Illegal in Minnesota by h123b on Friday October 19, 2012 @08:49AM (#4673261)
Communists North Korea and Cuba are free of corruption, now?
Re:Free Online Education Is Now Illegal in Minnesota by naturalethic on Friday October 19, 2012 @01:20PM (#4674472)
Guess we should be a for-loss society huh? Or perhaps perpetually stagnate. It's not profit motive here, it's government meddling, protectionism, mercantilism.