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Re:Drupal's Golden Handcuffs by lkrubner on Tuesday October 02, 2012 @06:41PM (#4604780)
I am puzzled by this:

"Good Drupal developers are making a lot of money right now, much more than I'm seeing for Django or Rails or Node devs in general."

I am curious where this is? This is not true in New York City, where I am. Developers who are good with a given PHP framework (Drupal, Symfony, etc) will make something like $60 to $70 an hour. The top Rails devs will make at least the same amount, and usually a little more than that.

Re:Drupal's Golden Handcuffs by dasil003 on Tuesday October 02, 2012 @08:02PM (#4605077)
This doesn't make sense to me either, though I haven't touched Drupal for at least 6 years.

In my experience, Drupal is ideal for cheap clients who want a zillion features but don't have the budget. You can deliver more functionality in Drupal than anything else, that is absolutely true.

For high-end clients who are willing to pay for impeccable UX and solid problem-solving, I can rarely recommend Drupal because it starts with a raft of assumptions that tend to lead to subtle compromises in the UX but would require an inordinate amount of effort to fix.

I ditched Drupal for Rails specifically because I hate being in the position where I have to explain why a seemingly simple change would require far more work than logically makes sense (to be fair, this is an occupational hazard of programming, but with Drupal it happens to an obscene degree). Going to Rails felt like targetting a higher class of client.

Meanwhile Rails developers seem like some of the most sought after programmers today. Where is this elite Drupal employment world that the OA speaks of?

Re:Drupal's Golden Handcuffs by juan_juarez on Tuesday October 02, 2012 @08:23PM (#4605141)
> In my experience, Drupal is ideal for cheap clients who want a zillion features but don't have the budget.

IE - customers you don't really want to be stuck with in the first place.

Re:Drupal's Golden Handcuffs by kalms on Wednesday October 03, 2012 @04:52AM (#4606488)
> Where is this elite Drupal employment world that the OA speaks of?

Drupal is fairly big here in Scandinavia, and it's my distinct impression that it's the same story all over Europe. It has a strong footing within online media that seems to grow every day.

I suspect that if I moved to another country, or even abroad, I wouldn't have much difficulty finding a different (high paying) job related to Drupal.

Also, if you're US based and like great community oriented dev houses: www.acquia.com, www.lullabot.com or www.palantir.net.

Re:Drupal's Golden Handcuffs by mechanical_fish on Wednesday October 03, 2012 @03:29AM (#4606277)
Where is this elite Drupal employment world that the OA speaks of?

http://www.acquia.com/customers

Just one subset, of course. Doesn't include customers of other major vendors.

Re:Drupal's Golden Handcuffs by debaserab2 on Wednesday October 03, 2012 @02:41PM (#4608967)
Digital/marketing agencies absolutely eat this shit up. I'm not sure what you consider to be a high budget, but it usually seems to be in the $80-$200k sweet spot where the agency wants to use Drupal so they can cut down on hours and still retain a lot of features.

Of course, they also want superb design and UX so things usually end up going over budget as we have to hack the hell out of Drupal to match the level of UX desired. Every single Drupal project I've worked on I've wished I could be using a real framework and code from scratch instead.

Unfortunately I don't see the perception of digital agency project managers changing much. They still think they can get the best of both worlds.

Re:Drupal's Golden Handcuffs by w4y2 on Tuesday October 02, 2012 @09:03PM (#4605255)
It appears you don't really understand the Drupal theming layer.
Re:Drupal's Golden Handcuffs by dasil003 on Wednesday October 03, 2012 @06:48AM (#4606766)
You created a new account just to post this ignorant snark?

My Drupal knowledge is well out of date, but the indisputable fact that the Drupal architecture like all software architecture imposes assumptions, many many more assumptions than a low-level framework like Rails (which tries to keep its assumptions as broadly applicable to all HTTP usage as possible). These assumptions imply tradeoffs. If you think there are no tradeoffs you need to step back and realize that Drupal has corrupted your mind and the limits of your web development ability will be constrained by whatever ideas Drupal core is able to harvest and integrate from the wider world of web development.

Re:Drupal's Golden Handcuffs by ryanwaggoner on Tuesday October 02, 2012 @09:09PM (#4605279)
This is not true in New York City, where I am. Developers who are good with a given PHP framework (Drupal, Symfony, etc) will make something like $60 to $70 an hour. The top Rails devs will make at least the same amount, and usually a little more than that.

Sounds like more developers who need to dramatically raise their rates. I'm in NYC and I charge more than double that for iOS development. I sit next to a good freelance PHP guy charging $85-95 / hr who is slammed with work, ironically mostly for Wordpress. He should be charging more, but he's getting there :)

And the top Rails devs in NYC are definitely charging way more than that; I know guys doing $150 / hr and up.

http://doubleyourfreelancingrate.com

Re:Drupal's Golden Handcuffs by hippich on Tuesday October 02, 2012 @09:52PM (#4605407)
I am charging $100/hr. Although I am not dealing with simple stuff like creating a theme or "build social network for XYZ from scratch using Drupal." I either fix complicated bugs and provide a guidance of best way to build site. My clients often pretty knowledgeable technology-wise, but I have insight into how Drupal work inside and therefore can provide great advice on how to do something or rather not do it at all.

As Drupal matures and become even more complex beast I expect my rate become even higher in next 1-3 years.

So, yes - Drupal is paid well now, but no - not basic clicking around and basic theming.

Re:Drupal's Golden Handcuffs by snowwrestler on Tuesday October 02, 2012 @10:34PM (#4605530)
Washington,DC. The federal government and attendant nonprofit industry are going hard into Drupal. It seems like every dev shop and consultancy is hiring Drupal developers currently. There is a definite talent shortage.
Re:Drupal's Golden Handcuffs by enobrev on Tuesday October 02, 2012 @07:38PM (#4604982)
I know developers (including myself on a rare occasion - i tend towards custom development) who are doing far better than $70/hour for Drupal development in NYC.

Although I don't know many successful developers who explicitly sell themselves as "[Framework] Developers". More often than not, when shooting for a higher rate, it seems to sell better as someone who provides a full solution, which May include specific frameworks if necessary.

Re:Drupal's Golden Handcuffs by knieveltech on Wednesday October 03, 2012 @01:18AM (#4605948)
Depends on the gig. Of course the market is awash in no-budget clients and small shops operating on a shoestring. They don't pay worth shit.

The big name Drupal shops in DC are constantly hiring and are shelling out something like double the average PHP developer salary for experienced Drupal developers. More if you're good enough to contribute to the core project.

I'm telecommuting for one of these shops and making over double the local average wage for PHP devs. If I wanted to make more cash in this area I'd have to either take a management position or start coding .net

For reasons that are mysterious to me .net developers in my area are making (on average) 30-50k+ more a year than developers at a similar point in their career, but coding in different languages.

Re:Drupal's Golden Handcuffs by incongruity on Tuesday October 02, 2012 @06:55PM (#4604830)
Out of idle curiosity (having left development a good while ago), are those rates you're quoting your expectations for freelance contracting or a salaried/full-time position?
Re:Drupal's Golden Handcuffs by lkrubner on Tuesday October 02, 2012 @08:26PM (#4605151)
The numbers I quoted are what I've worked for recently, as a freelance contractor. In terms of salaried positions, in NYC right now, the almost-top end for developers is around $130,000 a year. Anything above that tends to involve some management responsibilities. I have seen offers of $150,000, but that is for the team lead who is expected to also be a semi-manager.

I say "almost top end" because I am not including places like Google, where the top engineers make a lot more. I think my numbers are accurate for the vast majority of corporate jobs in NYC right now -- I get contacted by a ton of recruiters so I have a decent sense of the current situation. But I realize there is a small elite of tech companies who hire the highest elite of programmers, and the salaries there are probably above what I am seeing.

Re:Drupal's Golden Handcuffs by snowwrestler on Tuesday October 02, 2012 @10:38PM (#4605542)
There are definitely salaried senior Drupal devs in the DC area making $150k.