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Re:Why I use Windows 8 by UnoriginalGuy on Tuesday October 02, 2012 @05:40AM (#4601246)
Windows 8 boots faster because Windows 8 lies to you when you "Shutdown." Windows 8 actually hibernates instead of shutting down for real; and you can get the same effect by enabling hibernation on Windows 7 (or disabling "Fast startup" on Windows 8).

I'm also very surprised it took 20 second to boot in Windows 7 with an SSD. I have an SSD (an M4 specifically, on a SATA-3 connection) and Windows 7 never took 20 seconds to boot (with a UEFI "bios"). Closer to 10~12 seconds I would say.

I've been running 8 now for weeks and my biggest complaints are, firstly that they removed tons of "desktop" software (e.g. Picture Viewer, Media Player, the Games, et al) and secondly that they removed DVD playback (and even if you purchase it, it still only works in Media Centre).

Metro is something you can ignore. I will say that most Metro apps like the built-in Mail app are just horribly bad. So bad in fact that they're beyond use in some cases. Hopefully third parties can do useful things with Metro, because right now it doesn't have many use-cases.

Re:Why I use Windows 8 by josteink on Tuesday October 02, 2012 @06:20AM (#4601322)
Windows 8 boots faster because Windows 8 lies to you when you "Shutdown." Windows 8 actually hibernates instead of shutting down for real; and you can get the same effect by enabling hibernation on Windows 7

Incorrect. This is provenly false. Windows 8 boots faster from a cold boot than Windows 7. It really does. The memory footprint is much smaller. The runtime environment is much more optimized and snappy.

You can tell Microsoft has cut out lots of cruft and optimized critical code-paths, especially with regard to boot.

Hibernation which you refer to is a different feature, and provides you with the same session and programs and state as you had running before, just like a normal sleep would do on a laptop, except it will survive a flat battery. It does so by persisting your entire RAM to disk for reloading on boot. This is completely different from booting which would give you a new, empty session.

So if you end up with an empty session, it's provenly not hibernating, it's booting. And boot is much, much faster.

On all system's I've had, hibarnation, designed to save time, has only caused increased latency for shutdown/sleeping/hibernation, and similar increase in boot times since not only Windows needs to load, but all that persisted state must be restored as well.

On machines with more than 4GBs of RAM this leads to horrible performance and I've permanently disabled the option for the OS to use this due to the performance issues involved.

On Windows 8 I've kept the defaults and things are just flying.

Re:Why I use Windows 8 by UnoriginalGuy on Tuesday October 02, 2012 @08:36AM (#4601616)
Respectfully, you have no idea how Windows 8's fast startup mode works. You also don't seem to know that Fast Startup is the default (so when you hit "shutdown" it actually hibernates most of the system's state).

Essentially in Windows 8 (out of the box) if you hit "Shutdown" then it logs the user out and then "hibernates" the kernel, the registry, services, drivers, and all other "system" level processes.

The computer is then ordered to power off (just like hibernate). When you turn the machine back on, a notice appears on the screen which reads "Resuming from Hibernation" and it loads the Hibernation file into active memory.

Fast Startup is essentially Hibernation without a logged in user.

Windows 8's boot times with Fast Startup enabled is very competitive to Windows 7's boot times using Hibernation (instead of "Shutdown"). It is also very comparable too as Windows 8 doesn't truly shutdown in the traditional sense.

If you boot Windows 8 without Fast Startup enabled then the boot times are very similar to Windows 7's boot times.

As I said, Windows 8 lies to you. It isn't faster, it is just pushing Hibernation in a new deceptive way in order to appear faster.

Re:Why I use Windows 8 by davedx on Tuesday October 02, 2012 @06:33AM (#4601344)
"This is provenly false"

Citation needed.

Re:Why I use Windows 8 by josteink on Tuesday October 02, 2012 @06:51AM (#4601370)
OP claims that a Windows 8 uses a feature which without exception causes 1. extra IO workload, 2. reduced performance and which 3. persists entire sessions to 1. reduce IO workload, 2. increase performance while at the same time 3. session is not persisted.

I point out how this argument makes no sense.

I don't think I'm the one you should target with "citation needed".

Re:Why I use Windows 8 by jasomill on Tuesday October 02, 2012 @07:00AM (#4601388)
Now here’s the key difference for Windows 8: as in Windows 7, we close the user sessions, but instead of closing the kernel session, we hibernate it. Compared to a full hibernate, which includes a lot of memory pages in use by apps, session 0 hibernation data is much smaller, which takes substantially less time to write to disk. If you’re not familiar with hibernation, we’re effectively saving the system state and memory contents to a file on disk (hiberfil.sys) and then reading that back in on resume and restoring contents back to memory. Using this technique with boot gives us a significant advantage for boot times, since reading the hiberfile in and reinitializing drivers is much faster on most systems (30-70% faster on most systems we’ve tested).

Source: Microsoft, "Delivering fast boot times in Windows 8", Building Windows 8 blog, September 9, 2011 [1]

[1] http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/2011/09/08/delivering-fas...

Re:Why I use Windows 8 by josteink on Tuesday October 02, 2012 @07:06AM (#4601405)
That's certainly interesting, and thanks for proving parts of my argument wrong. I do appreciate being corrected. However OP made the following claim:

Windows 8 lies to you when you "Shutdown." Windows 8 actually hibernates instead of shutting down for real; and you can get the same effect by enabling hibernation on Windows 7

Note the part that where he claims that you can get the same speedup on Windows 7 by enabling hibernation. This is provenly false and anyone who has tried it would know.

Re:Why I use Windows 8 by jasomill on Tuesday October 02, 2012 @08:26AM (#4601596)
You are correct that "enabling hibernation" should have no effect on Windows 7 startup or shutdown performance, though I have no idea how quickly Windows 7 can enter and wake from hibernation with no user sessions open. While this would be easy enough to test, I also don't care: Windows Server 2008 R2 cold boots to a usable desktop in twelve seconds on my machine, which should be fast enough for anyone.
Re:Why I use Windows 8 by UnoriginalGuy on Tuesday October 02, 2012 @08:27AM (#4601598)
If you hibernate in Windows 7, and then boot, it takes approximately the same period of time as "booting" in Windows 8 (with "Fast Startup" enabled).

I have tried it. I do know. In fact if you measure it "to desktop" then Windows 7 full hibernation beats Windows 8's fast startup, because Windows 7 caches user programs in additional to Microsoft's side (i.e. registry, services, kernel, etc).

Re:Why I use Windows 8 by jasomill on Tuesday October 02, 2012 @08:42AM (#4601631)
Interesting. Now allocate 20GB of non-paged pool and try again.
Re:Why I use Windows 8 by UnoriginalGuy on Tuesday October 02, 2012 @09:08AM (#4601717)
That's a fairly obscure scenario. Plus, if that allocation was within a service or driver then both Windows 7 hibernation and Windows 8 Fast Startup would have to page it to the Hibernation file.
Re:Why I use Windows 8 by jasomill on Tuesday October 02, 2012 @10:05AM (#4602008)
"Interesting" was my main point; the non-paged pool comment was mostly kidding. Interesting in that it could indicate a "de-hibernation" process that's nothing like the "inverse of hibernation" one might naively think it should be: while hibernation must write 100% of allocated physical RAM to disk, "de-hibernation" need only restore non-paged pool plus whatever else is necessary to reinitialize the virtual memory subsystem (including whatever drivers are necessary to support it, of course). This done, the balance of the hibernation file could effectively be treated as a page file.
Re:Why I use Windows 8 by EwanToo on Tuesday October 02, 2012 @07:07AM (#4601409)
Hibernation over shutdowns massively improves the shutdown and startup times of my work PC.

Primarily because I have SQL Server on it for development - the services have a extremely long shutdown and startup time, which doesn't need to happen for hibernation.

Re:Why I use Windows 8 by jasomill on Tuesday October 02, 2012 @09:10AM (#4601728)
Interesting. I rarely bother to keep MSSQL loaded because it starts so quickly...

  PS C:\> (Measure-Command { Start-Service MSSQLSERVER }).TotalMilliseconds
  1127.5208
Alternatively, if you want SQL Server to start automatically without materially impacting startup performance, why not set its startup type to "Automatic (Delayed Start)"?

As for shutdown, while it depends on how you're using it immediately beforehand, I've never seen it take more than a few seconds on a development box.

Re:Why I use Windows 8 by davedx on Friday October 05, 2012 @02:25AM (#4615890)
I do the same thing because of Visual Studio and MSSQL - on Windows XP...
Re:Why I use Windows 8 by m0skit0 on Tuesday October 02, 2012 @06:53AM (#4601373)
Sure, Microsoft fans never need to cite anything. Being Microsoft is enough. Oh btw, all that nice features already exist in other OSs since a very long time ago. Oh and also: can we finally stretch the Windows console horizontally?
Re:Why I use Windows 8 by ProNihilist on Tuesday October 02, 2012 @07:01AM (#4601391)
You can already increase the width of the console, you just need to use Properties menu.
Re:Why I use Windows 8 by rbanffy on Tuesday October 02, 2012 @06:37AM (#4601348)
> So if you end up with an empty session, it's provenly not hibernating, it's booting.

Not necessarily. You can hibernate the machine after the user is logged off and restart from that point.

Re:Why I use Windows 8 by s_henry_paulson on Tuesday October 02, 2012 @05:51AM (#4601278)
Regarding your biggest complaint, they did not remove "tons" of desktop software. In fact, all of the software that you mention all exists in Windows 8.

If you want to use Windows Photo Viewer or Windows Media player, just right click whatever you are trying to view, and set your default program.

Re:Why I use Windows 8 by cabirum on Tuesday October 02, 2012 @05:50AM (#4601277)
Photo viewer and Media Player are there. When you first open a picture or a video, Windows asks what app to use - Metro or desktop one. It can be changed later in Program Defaults.
Re:Why I use Windows 8 by owenw on Tuesday October 02, 2012 @09:35PM (#4605351)
You are correct, sir, but if you press "restart" you forgo the "fast boot" hybrid and you do a cold boot. This is talked about in the article I reference on MSDN.

P.S - Picture viewer, Media Player, etc are still there, just not default. It's a pain.

Re:Why I use Windows 8 by mtgx on Tuesday October 02, 2012 @06:42AM (#4601356)
I wonder if Windows 8 will include some behavior research by default, to see if people actually use Metro or not, and if too many ignore it, maybe change course with Windows 9.