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Re:New York Times, AP, Newsmax and others say they won't sig... by gaindustries on Tuesday October 14, 2025 @09:19AM (#45579690)
Nonsense. People want a better society, but they have been forced to accept that can never happrn, so they settle with finding others to blame and seeking petty revenge. After all, these are literally human beings we're talking about; not animals as you imply. You are no better, my friend.
Re:New York Times, AP, Newsmax and others say they won't sig... by raw_anon_1111 on Tuesday October 14, 2025 @10:39AM (#45580627)
And this type of naïveté is why the left always loses. If the last election doesn’t wake people up nothing will. People want someone to represent them that hates the same people they hate. Who shares their grievances and punishes people who don’t look or think like them. That’s at least the case of 40%% of Americans who still support everything the current administration does.

This has always been “who we are” despite what Michelle Obama says.

Then people reply about “what about the other 60%”. If you have 10 friends and ask them what they want to eat for dinner and 6 say let’s get Mexican and the other 4 say let’s kill Bob and eat him. You still need to be concerned about your friend group.

Re:New York Times, AP, Newsmax and others say they won't sig... by mothballed on Tuesday October 14, 2025 @11:49AM (#45581466)
Bob should be able to secede from such a democracy, which was arguably an implied right of a voluntary union up until the Civil War. Otherwise democracy is just a tyranny of the majority, and bob is only 2 votes away from being dinner and legitimately so.
Re:New York Times, AP, Newsmax and others say they won't sig... by nineplay on Tuesday October 14, 2025 @12:18PM (#45581859)
The majority probably didn't want to secede prior to the civil war. Fortunately for those who did want to secede, a massive proportion of the population didn't have the right to vote.
Re:New York Times, AP, Newsmax and others say they won't sig... by mothballed on Tuesday October 14, 2025 @12:19PM (#45581894)
>South Carolina became the first state to formally secede in December 1860

>At 4:30 a.m. on April 12, 1861, Confederate troops fired on Fort Sumter in South Carolina's Charleston Harbor. Less than 34 hours later, Union forces surrendered. Traditionally, this event has been used to mark the beginning of the Civil War.

Re:New York Times, AP, Newsmax and others say they won't sig... by dragonwriter on Tuesday October 14, 2025 @12:23PM (#45581935)
I mean, the whole reason for the secession was the fear that at some indefinite point in the future they might be prevented from keeping a large portion (~30%) of the population in chattel slavery, so, yeah, there was a substantial disenfranchised portion of the population who probably wouldn’t have been on board with the cause of secession were they consulted on the matter.
Re:New York Times, AP, Newsmax and others say they won't sig... by potato3732842 on Tuesday October 14, 2025 @01:17PM (#45582527)
This sort of revisionist history helps nobody. It wasn't a "might" it was an "all but certainly". The election of Lincoln was kind of the nail in the coffin for slavery because it meant that the anti slavery interests would at least be able to do something that ended slavery if not immediately then at some point in the future via the votes from the new free states being incorporated from the territories.

Now, it would've been a lot nicer if they didn't start a war over it, but slavery was done for one way or another and everyone knew it.

Re:New York Times, AP, Newsmax and others say they won't sig... by dragonwriter on Tuesday October 14, 2025 @01:38PM (#45582716)
> The election of Lincoln was kind of the nail in the coffin for slavery because it meant that the anti slavery interests would at least be able to do something that ended slavery if not immediately then at some point in the future via the votes from the new free states being incorporated from the territories.

I mean, in an alternate universe where the modern cloture rule existed and somehow at least one extra free state was admitted while the South was not paying attention to block it, sure, that’s almost plausible, but...

Re:New York Times, AP, Newsmax and others say they won't sig... by potato3732842 on Tuesday October 14, 2025 @02:17PM (#45583088)
You mean the alternate universe of <checks notes> Brazil?

They progressively outlawed slavery over the course of 1870 through 1890 without a civil war. The US probably could've done just about the same over a shorter period (because the US was richer and could have paid its way through a lot of the opposition faced in Brazil).

Re:New York Times, AP, Newsmax and others say they won't sig... by dragonwriter on Tuesday October 14, 2025 @04:11PM (#45584197)
> You mean the alternate universe of <checks notes> Brazil?

Brazil had the same Constitution, Senate Rules, and balance of power between slave and free states as the pre-Civil War USA?

Re:New York Times, AP, Newsmax and others say they won't sig... by cafard on Wednesday October 15, 2025 @09:26AM (#45592161)
Lincoln favored projects of emancipation with compensation to the slaveholders. In a letter of March 14, 1862, he writes that the paying off all claims in Delaware, Maryland, the District of Columbia, Kentucky, and Missouri, at $400 per head (his term, not mine) would cost less than the expense incurred in eighty-seven days of war. The project went forward only in the District of Columbia.
Re:New York Times, AP, Newsmax and others say they won't sig... by mothballed on Tuesday October 14, 2025 @12:25PM (#45581953)
A case of secession more directly attributed to choice by slaves was that of Haiti.
Re:New York Times, AP, Newsmax and others say they won't sig... by wat10000 on Tuesday October 14, 2025 @12:00PM (#45581626)
Allowing an entire state to secede does bupkis to prevent a tyranny of the majority. You just need a smaller number of people to be a tyrannical majority in your newly independent state.
Re:New York Times, AP, Newsmax and others say they won't sig... by mothballed on Tuesday October 14, 2025 @12:06PM (#45581717)
At some people you can secede to an individual size of 1, at which point you can only tyrannize yourself. But it's a valid point, you're only mitigating not eliminating tyranny of the majority by picking which democracy you choose to be a part of. It is harder to tyrannize people with options, though, and much easier if it's either follow the company line or be massacred in a civil war.

The Somalis basically have this system, which has been more successful than their geographic attempts at democracy, where you can essentially go under an entirely different legal system even in the exact same geographic spot by accepting a sponsor of another tribe, or possibly by marrying ('xeer'), or if you so choose you can secede from the whole thing and make your own tribe and take the risks that come with that.

Re:New York Times, AP, Newsmax and others say they won't sig... by wat10000 on Tuesday October 14, 2025 @02:25PM (#45583176)
It's really weird describe secession as even "mitigating" tyranny of the majority when your example is the Confederacy. The whole point of seceding was to try to ensure they could continue the white majority's tyranny over their black slaves. There's nothing inherently better about being ruled by a smaller state.
Re:New York Times, AP, Newsmax and others say they won't sig... by mothballed on Tuesday October 14, 2025 @02:35PM (#45583288)
I said it was an implied right up until the Civil War, not that the Confederacy was the shining example on a hill (in fact the confederates would no doubt deny the slaves themselves the right of secession). You've pointed out to one example of secession that might be worse for black people, ignoring all the while in my relative comment the example I used was of the black people themselves seceding from the tyrannical state (Haiti).

Damning secession because it's not perfect cuz muh Confederacy is just intellectually dishonest. No political system is perfect, having the option is better than nothing. I have never implied that the right of secession should stop at the size of a slave state and the slaves could not themselves secede which they have in fact successfully done.

Re:New York Times, AP, Newsmax and others say they won't sig... by wat10000 on Tuesday October 14, 2025 @02:53PM (#45583454)
I'm not the one who picked it as your only example. Your Haiti comment was in a completely different part of the thread and not replying to me.

You did say that the secession of the South mitigated tyranny of the majority, when in fact it did the exact opposite.

If you want to say that it usually does this, that would be one thing, but you put it as a universal and chose the worst example for it.

Re:New York Times, AP, Newsmax and others say they won't sig... by mothballed on Tuesday October 14, 2025 @02:58PM (#45583495)
>mitigating not eliminating tyranny of the majority by picking which democracy you choose to be a part of.

I said secession mitigates tyranny of the majority.

I don't think you understand what mitigate means. It doesn't mean the risk is eliminated. Quite often a mitigation effort will do the opposite (i.e. vaccines mitigate risk of death but some patient has allergic reaction to vaccine and patient dies).

Arguably had black people been able to secede from the union AND the confederacy they might have been better off, but of course, both the union and the confederates would likely have attacked them in that case, because it's not as if white people didn't want to tyrannize blacks even in the north, they just didn't do it with the mechanism of slavery (arguably because slavery was just becoming bad economics in the industrial north and attacking slavery was more of a way to get one up on the south than to help black people that hardly had the rights of whites in the North).

Re:New York Times, AP, Newsmax and others say they won't sig... by x3n0ph3n3 on Tuesday October 14, 2025 @09:29AM (#45579797)
Not everyone wants a better society, nor agrees on what a better society even looks like. It's a common mistake to believe your adversary is just like you, but terribly confused.
Re:New York Times, AP, Newsmax and others say they won't sig... by conartist6 on Tuesday October 14, 2025 @09:51AM (#45580039)
I really hate to be the one to break this to you, but humans are a kind of animal
Re:New York Times, AP, Newsmax and others say they won't sig... by card_zero on Tuesday October 14, 2025 @10:13AM (#45580261)
They're also a kind of growth medium for bacteria, a kind of vector for memes, a kind of informal unit of measurement and a kind of meat. What about it.
Re:New York Times, AP, Newsmax and others say they won't sig... by IAmBroom on Wednesday October 15, 2025 @11:52AM (#45594467)
conartists is replying to the claim 'you are a human, not an animal'.
Re:New York Times, AP, Newsmax and others say they won't sig... by aredox on Tuesday October 14, 2025 @10:30AM (#45580501)
A better society for who?

>You are no better, my friend.

I resent them for their choices and their dishonesty. Things they chose to be and could change if they were open to discussion in good faith - which they refuse.

They resent me and millions of others for my skin color or my sexual orientation or where I was born. Things I never chose and can't change.

Re:New York Times, AP, Newsmax and others say they won't sig... by DaSHacka on Tuesday October 14, 2025 @03:44PM (#45583929)
The funny thing is I have no idea what side you're talking about.
Re:New York Times, AP, Newsmax and others say they won't sig... by aredox on Wednesday October 15, 2025 @04:24AM (#45589548)
Only because you feel that "equality" is an attack on your privilege.
Re:New York Times, AP, Newsmax and others say they won't sig... by IAmBroom on Wednesday October 15, 2025 @11:51AM (#45594438)
Really? You have no idea which side of US politics hates people based on skin color or sexual orientation?

Please argue in good faith.

Re:New York Times, AP, Newsmax and others say they won't sig... by DaSHacka on Thursday October 16, 2025 @10:34AM (#45605861)
I mean, both sides can easily argue both things.

Did you miss the current administration's pushback against DEI for being "discriminatory towards white cisgender males"?

Re:New York Times, AP, Newsmax and others say they won't sig... by phatskat on Thursday October 16, 2025 @08:59PM (#45612366)
But DEI isn’t and wasn’t ever that. I did DEI training at two different jobs and it boiled down to “you can’t know what someone else may be going through, or where they’ve been, and no the best course of action is to be open and curious”. Heck, in my most recent DEI training, one of the people to be sympathetic towards was a white cis man - it was a section focusing on discrimination based on age.

Both sides can not, in my view, argue both things: the right as we see it in America wants to oppress people based on immutable values such as race and gender.

The left wants people to acknowledge that “hey maybe it’s ok if everything doesn’t cater to one specific archetype of a person” - no reasonable person on the left wants to punish or oppress anyone for being a “white cisgender male”.

There’s this idea I’ve held onto that seems very apt: when a group that was being oppressed is given the same rights as their oppressors, their oppressors feel as though something is being taken from them.

Re:New York Times, AP, Newsmax and others say they won't sig... by corimaith on Thursday October 16, 2025 @09:36PM (#45612541)
You're taking the most charitable view of the underlying worldview of the progressive left and the most infernal view of the right. That's not epistemologically fair.

There is a alot of performative contradiction being performed here, there's an evokation of post-structuralist assumptions when you critique the particularist structure of modern society that favours certain archetypes based on certain assumptions, but then your later statement about oppressors and oppressed itself is projecting a new framing that is prone to it's own dubious assumptions and favours certain archetypes (the oppressed). There isn't much actual concrete grounding of ethical values here, and that's ironically reflected in the fact that most people do have different opinions on the matter.

But that's not a contradiction that progressivism can escape, because to provide a strong grounding to say "Racism is bad", you need to evoke from a universalist framework, one that empiricism or liberalism previously provided. But it is precisely the perceived arrogance to declare your values as universal when they emerged particularly from the West that is what is being critiqued in critical theory as Systemic Racism. Power + Prejudice.

Well, the Left and Right does draw alot from the identity politics promulgated from the Nazi Philosopher Carl Schmitt. Did you know that he supported the Nazis from the basis of pluralism, that he was terrified of the rise of universalist, homogenous world state?

Re:New York Times, AP, Newsmax and others say they won't sig... by wat10000 on Tuesday October 14, 2025 @10:06AM (#45580195)
That’s not opposed to what I’m saying. Lots of people want a better society and think that “better” involves powerful people wielding it against people they don’t like. Everybody is the hero of their own story. The Nazis thought they were making the world a better place by murdering all the undesirables.

And I never said I was better. I nearly added a “and this isn’t exclusive to one side” addendum to my comment, but decided that would just derail my point. Maybe I should have.

Re:New York Times, AP, Newsmax and others say they won't sig... by potato3732842 on Tuesday October 14, 2025 @01:22PM (#45582585)
>That’s not opposed to what I’m saying. Lots of people want a better society and think that “better” involves powerful people wielding it against people they don’t like. Everybody is the hero of their own story. The Nazis thought they were making the world a better place by murdering all the undesirables.

Exactly. The boomers thought they were making the world a better place with their 1960s environmentalism regulation and zoning. Turns out they mostly just teed up a housing crisis 50yr later.

Re:New York Times, AP, Newsmax and others say they won't sig... by wat10000 on Tuesday October 14, 2025 @02:33PM (#45583269)
Yes, if only we still had deadly smog, maybe we could afford rent.
Re:New York Times, AP, Newsmax and others say they won't sig... by mothballed on Tuesday October 14, 2025 @02:48PM (#45583404)
No, it's zoning, codes, and covenants, and licensing that were all the barriers that stopped me from building a house in 99.9% of the USA. I ultimately found a place that allowed me to bypass that, which thankfully also has virtually zero public utilities or police/fire or services or taxes which is probably the thing scaring shitless any of the bootlickers from coming out here and making housing laws like the rest of the places.
Re:New York Times, AP, Newsmax and others say they won't sig... by potato3732842 on Tuesday October 14, 2025 @08:03PM (#45586452)
If you were trying to build the kind of density of lot covered by building and other impermeable surface that you see in cities built out before the 70s (i.e. the stuff HN fawns over) stormwater stuff would prevent you.
Re:New York Times, AP, Newsmax and others say they won't sig... by potato3732842 on Tuesday October 14, 2025 @08:01PM (#45586443)
A problem in a handful of cities does not justify the federal government micromanaging stormwater nation wide to the detriment of everyone who needs to have a roof over their head.

The clean water act literally outlaws cheap density via stormwater rules. Even if zoning permitted you can't just build an apartment building right up to your setback minimums like you could in the old days (without spending hundreds of thousands to possibly to comply).

Re:New York Times, AP, Newsmax and others say they won't sig... by alphabettsy on Tuesday October 14, 2025 @09:19PM (#45587025)
Poor stormwater management has caused very expensive issues all over the country especially and including small towns from both flooding and pollution. I agree something needs to be done, but aimless deregulation is not it.
Re:New York Times, AP, Newsmax and others say they won't sig... by wat10000 on Tuesday October 14, 2025 @09:27PM (#45587060)
Blaming “environmentalism” for that is pretty silly.
Re:New York Times, AP, Newsmax and others say they won't sig... by potato3732842 on Wednesday October 15, 2025 @08:41AM (#45591523)
I'm blaming useful idiots for uncritically peddling regulatory capture because someone put lipstick on it.