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Re:Charlie Kirk shot at event in Utah by Izikiel43 on Thursday September 11, 2025 @02:29AM (#45208481)
> It's bad faith because womanhood, like (for instance) adulthood, is a social construct.

And the Democratic Party still wonders why they lost. I’m saying this as not an American. The question is what’s 2+2 and the answer being it’s a social construct.

Re:Charlie Kirk shot at event in Utah by bccdee on Thursday September 11, 2025 @02:35AM (#45208519)
> The question is what’s 2+2 and the answer being it’s a social construct.

Brother, you'll never guess what type of construct numbers are.

If American voters prefer simple, incorrect answers over complex truths, that's a problem with their education system, not with trans rights.

Re:Charlie Kirk shot at event in Utah by account42 on Thursday September 11, 2025 @06:55AM (#45210079)
You're proving his point. Discussion of Peano axioms or however you want to construct natural numbers is irrelevant to the question what's two plus two, which has a straightforward answer to anyone who isn't being intentionally obtuse.
Re:Charlie Kirk shot at event in Utah by bccdee on Thursday September 11, 2025 @01:56PM (#45214309)
A better point of comparison would not be a question like "what is 2+2," but "what is 4?" There's a superficial, circular answer ("What is 4? It's 2+2"), and there's a more complex and rigorous answer which doesn't look good on camera ("What is 4? Well, numbers are a social construct used to communicate and analyze etc etc, Peano arithmetic blah blah").

These questions also admit "straightforward" answers ("what's 4?" raises 4 fingers "this many") ("what's a woman?" points to a woman "one of those"), but these don't really answer the deeper question being asked. They gesture at a preexisting category and demand that it be recognized without actually explaining the nature of that category or its boundaries.

Re:Charlie Kirk shot at event in Utah by peterashford on Thursday September 11, 2025 @04:11AM (#45209113)
Well, I'm also not an American and I thought their answer was insightful and yours was dumb. We can all play this game.

Alternatively you could actual engage with the substance of the argument?

Re:Charlie Kirk shot at event in Utah by Izikiel43 on Thursday September 11, 2025 @06:27PM (#45216745)
That anything can be whatever we want because everything is defined by society/culture?

It’s clear to me that these people lack real problems and are creating their own.

Re:Charlie Kirk shot at event in Utah by peterashford on Thursday September 11, 2025 @06:52PM (#45216905)
If you ask a biologist, you will find that categories like "woman" are not clearly defined. Even the concept of biological sex is really complicated. If you want to pretend that this stuff is all black and white, that's up to you but its not a scientifically literate perspective.

That's not the same as saying that "everything is defined by society/culture?" That's a strawman - no-one was claiming that.

Re:Charlie Kirk shot at event in Utah by Izikiel43 on Thursday September 11, 2025 @10:42PM (#45218171)
> Even the concept of biological sex is really complicated.

In some insect, reptile or fish, like the clown fish, sure.

In mammals? It’s not. And to be more specific, in primates, it’s not.

Re:Charlie Kirk shot at event in Utah by peterashford on Sunday September 14, 2025 @04:51PM (#45243134)
Re:Charlie Kirk shot at event in Utah by Izikiel43 on Tuesday September 16, 2025 @07:58PM (#45269883)
You bring an article by an anthropologist to a question about biology:

> Agustín Fuentes is a professor of anthropology at Princeton University.

You should actually read the opinion of a biologist:

https://archive.is/wUZTM

> When biologists claim that sex is binary, we mean something straightforward: There are only two sexes. This is true throughout the plant and animal kingdoms. An organism’s sex is defined by the type of gamete (sperm or ova) it has the function of producing. Males have the function of producing sperm, or small gametes; females, ova, or large ones. Because there is no third gamete type, there are only two sexes. Sex is binary.

> Gender ideology seeks to portray sex as so incomprehensibly complex and multivariable that our traditional practice of classifying people as simply either male or female is grossly outdated and should be abandoned for a revolutionary concept of “gender identity.” This entails that males wouldn’t be barred from female sports, women’s prisons or any other space previously segregated according to our supposedly antiquated notions of “biological sex,” so long as they “identify” as female.

> But “intersex” and “transgender” mean entirely different things. Intersex people have rare developmental conditions that result in apparent sex ambiguity. Most transgender people aren’t sexually ambiguous at all but merely “identify” as something other than their biological sex. Once you’re conscious of this distinction, you will begin to notice gender ideologues attempting to steer discussions away from whether men who identify as women should be allowed to compete in female sports toward prominent intersex athletes like South African runner Caster Semenya. Why? Because so long as they’ve got you on your heels making difficult judgment calls on a slew of complex intersex conditions, they’ve succeeded in drawing your attention away from easy calls on unquestionably male athletes like 2022 NCAA Division I women’s swimming and diving champion Lia Thomas. They shift the focus to intersex to distract from transgender.

Re:Charlie Kirk shot at event in Utah by bccdee on Thursday September 11, 2025 @10:31PM (#45218096)
Ironically, "trans women think they're women but I think they're wrong!!" is by far the least real problem being discussed here. Nobody's forcing you to have a nuanced discussion about gender. You asked how we define "woman"; this the answer.
Re:Charlie Kirk shot at event in Utah by Izikiel43 on Thursday September 11, 2025 @10:41PM (#45218158)
I didn’t ask, just that it’s up for discussion is ridiculous to me, but well, some people don’t have enough issues in life it seems.
Re:Charlie Kirk shot at event in Utah by thephyber on Thursday September 11, 2025 @03:37AM (#45208888)
The context you are missing here is that Charlie Kirk spent a decade crafting this into a wedge issue while gaslighting the informed academics that their answer was wrong.

Kirk would always use the first dictionary definition of “woman” while academics would incorporate both the first and second definitions. And the cultural effect ballooned when this specific question became a meme and a virtue signal.

Forest Valkai explains this all in a few minutes:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=M0uCLgFMC-c

Re:Charlie Kirk shot at event in Utah by miltonlost on Thursday September 11, 2025 @03:02AM (#45208668)
2+2? That’s 1! In Z mod 3 field. Gender is a social construct. How we define numbers in a field? Also a construct. Sorry you’re dumb and can’t figure that out
Re:Charlie Kirk shot at event in Utah by mock-possum on Thursday September 11, 2025 @02:00PM (#45214342)
No, the question is “is Pluto a planet” and the answer is complicated, but if you take the time to read up on how the scientific community reached consensus, then chances are you’ll end up better understanding the nuance - and why the answer is simply “No.”

Define “woman?” It’s easy - it’s the traditional gender role for people AFAB. Do you understand how we arrive at that answer though?

Re:Charlie Kirk shot at event in Utah by Izikiel43 on Thursday September 11, 2025 @06:21PM (#45216704)
I understand now all the complaints from regular people about how the democrats and colleges are out of touch with reality, it’s like another universe or twilight zone.
Re:Charlie Kirk shot at event in Utah by mock-possum on Thursday September 25, 2025 @12:50PM (#45375306)
How do you mean?
Re:Charlie Kirk shot at event in Utah by cderg on Friday September 12, 2025 @07:26AM (#45221005)
> Define “woman?” It’s easy - it’s the traditional gender role for people AFAB.

This redefinition of "woman" comes from a fundamentally sexist and conservative perspective.

Re:Charlie Kirk shot at event in Utah by bccdee on Saturday September 13, 2025 @02:39PM (#45234324)
If you actually knew any gender-non-conformant butch women, you'd know they are overwhelmingly trans allies.
Re:Charlie Kirk shot at event in Utah by mock-possum on Thursday September 25, 2025 @12:48PM (#45375284)
Yes, precisely! Modern conservatism is almost primarily characterized by the way it holds traditional gender roles as sacred! Gender unorthodoxy is their main objection to progressiveness!

That’s the reason any of this is even an issue, conservatives still think cows are sacred, queers are hungry for steak!