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Re:Calling your boss a dickhead is not a sackable offence, U... by Aurornis on Thursday September 04, 2025 @11:17AM (#45128249)
HR and legal across the UK are probably updating their company procedures right now to include every imaginable reason they might want to fire someone.

That’s why I don’t see these rulings as a win for the common employee. The situation now encourages companies to be as broad as possible with their contracts and policies and include so many just-in-case provisions that it starts to get hard for anyone to know and follow all of them.

Re:Calling your boss a dickhead is not a sackable offence, U... by scott_w on Thursday September 04, 2025 @11:34AM (#45128448)
> HR and legal across the UK are probably updating their company procedures right now to include every imaginable reason they might want to fire someone.

No, they aren't because that's not how contracts or the law work in the UK. The court found that the contract enumerated a long list of breaches of contract, of which "swearing at colleagues" was not in that list. This means the court read the list as exhaustive, because it appeared to be exhaustive.

If the contract was worded differently, the court may not have used this interpretive rule. If the wording was a little more broad, the court may have worked to determine whether "swearing at your boss" could reasonably fit into the terms.

Re:Calling your boss a dickhead is not a sackable offence, U... by Aurornis on Thursday September 04, 2025 @11:39AM (#45128500)
> No, they aren't because that's not how contracts or the law work in the UK. The court found that the contract enumerated a long list of breaches of contract, of which "swearing at colleagues" was not in that list. This means the court read the list as exhaustive, because it appeared to be exhaustive.

Yes, and that's why I said HR and Legal are updating their boilerplate to be more exhaustive.

Re:Calling your boss a dickhead is not a sackable offence, U... by toomuchtodo on Thursday September 04, 2025 @11:42AM (#45128531)
UK companies are not going to be able to out engineer UK labor protections to arrive at the US' at will experience. Such is the point of labor laws and protections. They can update the procedures, they'll still end up in court or tribunals. This is not the US (thankfully).
Re:Calling your boss a dickhead is not a sackable offence, U... by Aurornis on Thursday September 04, 2025 @11:45AM (#45128568)
Obviously contracts can't override labor laws

I'm saying they're going to update the contracts to match the labor laws.

If the labor laws say you have to have fireable offenses explicitly enumerated, contracts will now have a lot of fireable offenses explicitly enumerated. That's not evading the law, that's literally how you comply with the law.

Re:Calling your boss a dickhead is not a sackable offence, U... by ceejayoz on Thursday September 04, 2025 @12:10PM (#45128854)
> If the labor laws say you have to have fireable offenses explicitly enumerated...

They don't, nor does this decision.

The company simply didn't follow the rules of the employment contract, which both parties had agreed to.

Re:Calling your boss a dickhead is not a sackable offence, U... by scott_w on Thursday September 04, 2025 @12:48PM (#45129281)
> I'm saying they're going to update the contracts to match the labor laws.

No they're not. This ruling makes no difference to the legal, employment or contractual landscape of the UK. Reading the ruling, it was resolved in exactly the way any competent HR lawyer would expect. The employer was bang out of order and was rightly slapped down by the court.

> If the labor laws say you have to have fireable offenses explicitly enumerated

No they don't. As others have pointed out: the ruling flags that the contract itself enumerates gross misconduct offences. Some of which include "excessive swearing" or "swearing at customers." Given the context of what the contract does enumerate, the court found that the contract does not consider this, obviously, lesser misconduct was out of scope of gross misconduct, as per the terms of the contract.

If the contract did not include such a specific list, but merely described a more broad category of things that are considered gross misconduct, then the court might have ruled differently.

Re:Calling your boss a dickhead is not a sackable offence, U... by _benedict on Thursday September 04, 2025 @12:24PM (#45128996)
No, the ruling expressly refers to the list as non exhaustive, but given the other related references to misconduct (including the use of inappropriate language) it was not reasonable to infer that this example was gross misconduct.
Re:Calling your boss a dickhead is not a sackable offence, U... by Twirrim on Thursday September 04, 2025 @11:31AM (#45128403)
Based on conversations with a relative in HR in the UK, usually the company procedures are detailed and cover everything. You just have to follow the procedure. Most of the pain they ever had to deal with has come down to managers etc. acting off the cuff, not following the documented process.
Re:Calling your boss a dickhead is not a sackable offence, U... by ceejayoz on Thursday September 04, 2025 @11:18AM (#45128265)
They'd best be prepared to enforce it evenly, then, or the next suit is "my boss called me a dickhead 43 times without any consequences, and that's discriminatory".
Re:Calling your boss a dickhead is not a sackable offence, U... by Aurornis on Thursday September 04, 2025 @11:41AM (#45128521)
Which is another loss for the common employee, because now if you mistakenly violate one of those voluminous company policies or you're having a bad day and make a small lapse of judgment, they're going to feel obligated to punish you for it to avoid more legal infractions.
Re:Calling your boss a dickhead is not a sackable offence, U... by ceejayoz on Thursday September 04, 2025 @12:09PM (#45128844)
Or, as said rules also apply to the boss, they might feel obligated to be a bit more reasonable.

In this case, all they had to do was issue a warning - as they promosed to do in the contract - instead of a summary firing for the first offense. If the behavior reoccurred they'd have been clear.

Re:Calling your boss a dickhead is not a sackable offence, U... by wredcoll on Thursday September 04, 2025 @04:18PM (#45131787)
This is a terribly bad faith argument.

We're literally reading an example of someone being protected by laws and your response is "well this is actually bad for them"?

Re:Calling your boss a dickhead is not a sackable offence, U... by tempfile on Thursday September 04, 2025 @11:42AM (#45128534)
Doesn't every win for the common employee encourage companies to be as broad as possible? What would count as a "real win" by your standard?
Re:Calling your boss a dickhead is not a sackable offence, U... by tialaramex on Thursday September 04, 2025 @12:41PM (#45129194)
> HR and legal across the UK are probably updating their company procedures right now to include every imaginable reason they might want to fire someone.

If you want to fire someone you follow procedure. In this case they didn't follow procedure. This is exactly the sort of situation HR already despairs over.

Writing new HR documents can't fix this, the same way that bolding the text "Do not press this button" in the instruction manual will not stop customers who don't read the manual and then press the button from doing so.

This also just obviously isn't gross misconduct. So now your rewritten procedures might get you sued which (checks notes) is the opposite of what you wanted.

Re:Calling your boss a dickhead is not a sackable offence, U... by KaiserPro on Thursday September 04, 2025 @01:17PM (#45129678)
> broad as possible with their contracts

have you read any of your company's policys recently?

at one company I could be technically fired for wearing a tracksuit to work.

at a FAANG, one that was very famous for upholding "freedom of expression", could fire me for questioning _in private_ the direction of anyone more senior than me.

Even if those policies are broad and all encompassing, you still need to demonstrate that they were applied correctly, proportionally and reasonably.

You also need to prove that the _policy_ is reasonable as well.

for example you _could_ have a policy where you cannot say anything negative. Good luck trying to prove that its legally reasonable (and that it was applied evenly)