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Re:France launches criminal probe of X over alleged algorith... by amelius on Monday July 21, 2025 @08:23AM (#44634318)
How do you prove it?
Re:France launches criminal probe of X over alleged algorith... by xyzal on Monday July 21, 2025 @08:30AM (#44634360)
Not that hard really (found only German example though)

https://www.linkedin.com/posts/global-witness_globalwitnessi...

Re:France launches criminal probe of X over alleged algorith... by logicalfails on Monday July 21, 2025 @08:51AM (#44634518)
That doesn't really prove that much. They only made 3 accounts on X, then with each account they followed the 4 major parties and their leaders. Not a very good sample size.

Additionally, the underlying algo could lean toward to what causes more engagement rather than equally tailoring each party. Without having any information personally about German politics or their cultural engagement with social media, I can only anecdotally say that in America, it appears to me that the ones most engaged with social media on X are more often than not right leaning. More of the left-leaning engagement seems increasingly moving towards other outlets, such as Bluesky.

Re:France launches criminal probe of X over alleged algorith... by amelius on Monday July 21, 2025 @09:38AM (#44634941)
Social media is a populist's dream come true.

All the anger is amplified through an algorithm and you can't even say it's the algorithm's fault.

Re:France launches criminal probe of X over alleged algorith... by tzs on Monday July 21, 2025 @10:15AM (#44635371)
> I can only anecdotally say that in America, it appears to me that the ones most engaged with social media on X are more often than not right leaning. More of the left-leaning engagement seems increasingly moving towards other outlets, such as Bluesky.

Isn't that movement because Musk changed X to increase promotion of right-wing things and decrease promotion of left-wing things?

Before Musk Twitter did promote right-wing stuff more than left-wing stuff. I don't have a cite but there was a paper published by researchers who had been given full access to internal Twitter data that showed this.

That level of right-leaning is probably the level of right-leaning you get from the natural level of engagement you get on a fairly neutral platform from right-wing people being more likely to engage than left-wing people.

Re:France launches criminal probe of X over alleged algorith... by somenameforme on Monday July 21, 2025 @11:19AM (#44636220)
After Elon bought Twitter, they ended up losing something like 10% of their users. That's going to be made up mostly of highly ideological ostensibly left-leaning Americans, likely with a much higher than average "engagement." And the lion's share of that happened long before there were any meaningful algorithmic changes. That alone is going to create a meaningful shift in the status quo on overtly political topics.
Re:France launches criminal probe of X over alleged algorith... by motorest on Monday July 21, 2025 @10:18AM (#44635391)
> That doesn't really prove that much.

You seem confused. France launched a criminal probe, whose goal is to investigate whether these types of biases reflect actual manipulation from Twitter. You are presented with evidence suggesting these biases exist. Now France is expected to look into them. Their findings will either support a criminal case, reject a criminal case, or simply not support further investigations.

> Pushing antisemitism, holocaust denial, and supremacist content is not ok, even if you argue they are only pushing extremist content for the clicks (which is a laughably bad hypothesis as Twitter's business model depends on the platform having mainstream appeal)

Re:France launches criminal probe of X over alleged algorith... by retinaros on Monday July 21, 2025 @09:01AM (#44634616)
this is the playbook. they dont need to prove it beyond some weak deduction mecanism. they did it for romania to cancel an election
Re:France launches criminal probe of X over alleged algorith... by amelius on Monday July 21, 2025 @08:50AM (#44634513)
What if e.g. right-leaning content gets more likes/upvotes and this makes the algorithm show the posts more? That way, the algorithm can still be neutral, but the result is not.
Re:France launches criminal probe of X over alleged algorith... by aspenmayer on Sunday July 27, 2025 @07:30AM (#44700511)
"The left can't meme" is just one instance of so-called "meme magic" that came good, if good is what you see in the enterprise or if the particular ends justified the memes.

https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/the-left-cant-meme

https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/meme-magic

https://unherd.com/2021/08/why-the-left-cant-meme/ | https://web.archive.org/web/20210924231415/https://unherd.co...

https://www.vice.com/en/article/trumps-occult-online-support... | https://web.archive.org/web/20170125155034/http://motherboar...

As for me? I am beside myself. I view the content as part performance, part farce, all kayfabe. Trump et al learned from the best:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HyperNormalisation#A_World_Wit...

> In Russia, Vladimir Putin and his cabinet of political technologists create mass confusion. Vladislav Surkov uses ideas from art to turn Russian politics into a bewildering piece of theatre. Donald Trump employs the same techniques in his presidential campaign by using language from Occupy Wall Street. Curtis asserts that Trump "defeated journalism" by rendering its fact-checking abilities irrelevant.

> The American Left's attempt to resist Trump on the internet had no effect. In fact, they were just feeding the social media corporations who valued their many additional clicks.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladislav_Surkov

> Vladislav Yuryevich Surkov (Russian: Владислав Юрьевич Сурков; born 21 September 1964) is a Russian politician. He was First Deputy Chief of the Russian Presidential Administration from 1999 to 2011, during which time he was often viewed as the main ideologist of the Kremlin who proposed and implemented the concept of sovereign democracy in Russia. From December 2011 until May 2013, Surkov served as the Russian Federation's Deputy Prime Minister. After his resignation, Surkov returned to the Presidential Executive Office and became a personal adviser of Vladimir Putin on relationships with Abkhazia, South Ossetia and Ukraine.

> BBC documentary filmmaker Adam Curtis credits Surkov's blend of theater and politics with keeping Putin, and Putin's chosen successors, in power since 2000.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_democracy

> Whilst talking about sovereign democracy in 2006, Mikhail Kasyanov said that "... the aims of this doctrine are quite clear: the concentration and holding of political power and property at any cost. The consequences of this are already evident, including the glorification of populism, the steady destruction of private and public institutions and the departure from the principles of the law, democracy, and the free market."

> United States Assistant Secretary of State for European and Eurasian Affairs Daniel Fried (in office 2005–2009) stated in a 2007 interview:

> > I get nervous when people put labels in front of democracy. Sovereign democracy, managed democracy, people's democracy, socialist democracy, Aryan democracy, Islamic democracy—I am not a big fan of adjectives. Managed democracy doesn't sound like democracy. Sovereign democracy strikes me as meaningless.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guided_democracy

> Guided democracy, also called directed democracy and managed democracy, is a formally democratic government that functions as a de facto authoritarian government or, in some cases, as an autocratic government. Such hybrid regimes are legitimized by elections, but do not change the state's policies, motives, and goals.

> In a guided democracy, the government controls elections such that the people can exercise democratic rights without truly changing public policy. While they follow basic democratic principles, there can be major deviations towards authoritarianism. Under managed democracy, the state's continuous use of propaganda techniques, such as through manufacturing consent, prevents the electorate from having a significant impact on policy.

> The concept is also related to semi-democracy, also known as anocracy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I%27ve_Got_No_Strings

> Down where the Volga flows

> There's a Russian rendez-vous

> Where me and Ivan go

> But I'd rather go with you, hey

> There are no strings on me

Be well, anon.

Re:France launches criminal probe of X over alleged algorith... by Cthulhu_ on Monday July 21, 2025 @09:15AM (#44634736)
Subpoena the company and demand registration data for accounts flagged as looking like foreign influence. If it's a foreign IP or email, it's foreign influence. If it's through a proxy or VPN, it's likely foreign influence.

It is that simple. If Twitter doesn't comply with court orders like that, they will no longer be allowed to operate within France or the EU. Never ever think companies are above the law or don't have to cooperate with requests like this, that's a defeatist attitude.

Re:France launches criminal probe of X over alleged algorith... by somenameforme on Monday July 21, 2025 @09:21AM (#44634787)
That's literally a fishing expedition that could be exploited to harvest information on whoever one likes. It's the reason our legal system requires a substantial burden of evidence before one can even think of pursuing a warrant.

I mean seriously think about the implications of your concept here. X is a worldwide service. Should X just be an information broker dealing out the details on users to any country that makes claims as nebulous as 'foreign influence'? It's a term which can be (and often is) whimsically applied to essentially anybody who happens to disagree with some regime in a given country.

Re:France launches criminal probe of X over alleged algorith... by polotics on Monday July 21, 2025 @10:09AM (#44635307)
"Should X just be an information broker dealing out the details on users to any country that makes claims as nebulous as 'foreign influence'?"

Yes. A poster that specifically tries to influence a French elections with false statements is breaking French law wherever and whoever they are.

Re:France launches criminal probe of X over alleged algorith... by somenameforme on Monday July 21, 2025 @11:25AM (#44636304)
So should X give information to Iran on any Jewish account it suspects of engaging in "foreign influence"? How about to Russia on any Ukraine account, or vice versa? What about to everywhere else in the world and information on US accounts some country somewhere suspects of engaging in "foreign influence"?

Somehow rules seem to no longer apply when we start consider them being applied against our interests. This is a big part of the reason why the 'rules based order' is now mostly just sardonic mockery.

Re:France launches criminal probe of X over alleged algorith... by aredox on Monday July 21, 2025 @05:53PM (#44640845)
X is already doing it with India and many other countries, so your argument is nul.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/11/08/india-twitte...

Re:France launches criminal probe of X over alleged algorith... by somenameforme on Tuesday July 22, 2025 @12:30AM (#44643244)
The situations seem unrelated. There's a much more informative article on what's happening in India here. [1] India is censoring accounts in India which X complies with by making it clear that's what is happening as well as providing information to the user on how to legally challenge it.

France, by contrast, seems to be making poorly defined and largely unfalsifiable claims about X's algorithm itself. I do not believe X would comply if a country began demanding algorithmic changes, as the main reason you'd go after the algorithm is to enact censorship with no transparency, which is very much in the spirit of contemporary French politics.

[1] - https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/elon-musks-x-says-...

Re:France launches criminal probe of X over alleged algorith... by aredox on Tuesday July 22, 2025 @02:50AM (#44643904)
Of course it is falsifiable, that is why they ask to review what is the algorithm, what was changed and why. Given how mercurial Musk is, you can be sure that he's asked his team to bias the algo - not least to boost himself. Again, perfectly demonstrable in a factual way.

X already complies with Germany's ban on nazi material. If that's not an lagorithmic change, what is?

>which is very much in the spirit of contemporary French politics.

Put your own (glass)house in order. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/jun/19/us-free-spee...

Re:France launches criminal probe of X over alleged algorith... by somenameforme on Tuesday July 22, 2025 @04:08AM (#44644402)
You're again describing something where there is straight forward censorship. This is relatively easily done without algorithmic changes and enables X to provide complete transparency to the user about the censorship, as well as any legal recourse or other options a user might have. France, instead, wants the algorithm to promote material in a certain way which is radically different, and can be utilized to censor things without any accountability or transparency.

As for falsifiability, proving a negative is generally impossible. This is how witch trials were able to be successful. You can't really prove you aren't a witch, when the person accusing you already assumes that you are. This is why the burden of proof is on the person making accusations, as opposed to 'Let me go into your house and see if I can find anything that I might be able to use as evidence to justify my hunch that you're a witch. Ah hah, I found a dead frog! Burn the witch!'

Re:France launches criminal probe of X over alleged algorith... by aredox on Tuesday July 22, 2025 @08:19AM (#44645946)
>can be utilized to censor things without any accountability or transparency

What is the current accountability or transparency of the X algorithm?

Ah yes, Musk promised to make it public, and... it hasn't been updated in two years. https://github.com/twitter/the-algorithm And clearly, the promotion of Musk's tweets on everyone's timeline is completely organic.

>This is why the burden of proof is on the person making accusations Yeah, this is all a WITCH HUNT! No justice department has ever done any investigation in the history of humanity, warrants don't exist, people are only judged by what is publicly known without police ever seizing any private material. WITCH HUNT!

Go back to truth social, mister President.

Re:France launches criminal probe of X over alleged algorith... by somenameforme on Tuesday July 22, 2025 @10:18AM (#44647209)
There is obviously no accountability for social media algorithms, anywhere. Facebook/Instagram/YouTube are conspicuously algorithmically downranking (and on occasion overtly censoring) pro-Palestinian content, but the political establishment in Western bloc nations don't care, because they don't want unbiased algorithms - they want algorithms that are biased to push their issues of the day.

And Elon is being followed by some 220 million+ people. That's a not insubstantial chunk of the entire human race, let alone the subset of X users. It's unsurprising that his comments would end up highly promoted by most of any algorithm that significantly weights account popularity, which all do - excepting perhaps TikTok.

To get a warrant you need to present strong probable cause to a judge - not liking what is being promoted would not suffice.

Re:France launches criminal probe of X over alleged algorith... by libertine on Monday July 21, 2025 @08:55AM (#44634561)
There are plenty of investigations regarding this, for example: https://www.justice.gov/archives/opa/pr/justice-department-l...
Re:France launches criminal probe of X over alleged algorith... by aredox on Monday July 21, 2025 @09:18AM (#44634752)
Have you already forgotten the US want to fully ban TikTok?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restrictions_on_TikTok_in_the_...