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Re:What killed the Linux desktop by untog on Wednesday August 29, 2012 @03:37PM (#4450621)
Even windows, crappy as it may be, has it. [...] Apple's work looks pretty-- because it is designed to function well.

Actually, I'd say the same of Windows, if not more so. I far prefer the Windows 7 interface to OSX, it's just stuff like the terminal/command prompt that really lets Windows down.

Re:What killed the Linux desktop by Derbasti on Wednesday August 29, 2012 @04:11PM (#4450815)
I absolutely agree. I actually prefer the graphical shell of Windows 7 to the one of OSX Lion. But Windows does not have a Unix terminal.

And I think that is the main point here: Linux might lack design graphically, but the Linux command line is about the most beautiful thing out there. There is an abundance of elegance there is probably only rivaled by some Lisp machine.

Who knows, maybe, I will switch from OSX to Linux because of that at some point. It is certainly tempting.

Re:What killed the Linux desktop by masklinn on Wednesday August 29, 2012 @04:25PM (#4450906)
> I actually prefer the graphical shell of Windows 7 to the one of OSX Lion.

Explorer? Versus finder? That's a pretty low-hanging fruit, I can't remember ever preferring finder to explorer and I've been using OSX as my main dev machine (and Windows mostly for the game box) for 6 years now. I prefer OSX overall, but the finder still isn't a good shell.

Re:What killed the Linux desktop by Derbasti on Wednesday August 29, 2012 @04:50PM (#4451118)
I was going to leave a snarky comment with just a list of awful OSX applications here. But then I looked at a list of the applications I have installed and... Well, while many of them might be bad, their usual alternatives on Windows aren't exactly better.

But Finder really is bad. Then again, I wish ANY other OS would implement the column view Finder has. As bad as Finder is, column view is awesome.

But many of the great things on the Mac have been subverted in the last few years.

Have you tried dragging a proxy icon from the title bar of an OSX application to an external disk lately? It creates a new alias there. An ALIAS. On an external disk.

Or HFS+, which still has a global lock whenever ANY application wants to write to the file system. A GLOBAL lock. No other program may access the hard drive while one is writing. Insanity!.

Or the complete lack of uninstallers. I am continuously baffled by that. How can you have a "modern" operating system without uninstallers?

Desktop apps are really fine though. It's just the foundation that is getting rusty. Not a good thing, that.

Re:What killed the Linux desktop by untog on Wednesday August 29, 2012 @04:55PM (#4451164)
Or the complete lack of uninstallers. I am continuously baffled by that. How can you have a "modern" operating system without uninstallers?

Well, the dream is that you don't need one. Drag the app from Applications to the Trash and... ta-da! Of course, that never happens with anything more complex than the most superficial of apps.

Re:What killed the Linux desktop by masklinn on Wednesday August 29, 2012 @05:18PM (#4451357)
> Of course, that never happens with anything more complex than the most superficial of apps.

Well all of my applications are superficial apparently, because apart from Little Snitch I can't think of one I'll need an uninstaller for. And LS is a special case.

Re:What killed the Linux desktop by andybak on Wednesday August 29, 2012 @07:27PM (#4452022)
I'd say at least 25% of the OS X apps I try have an installer and therefore require an uninstaller that often doesn't exist. Usually someone on a forum somewhere lists a sequence of terminal commands required to remove an app and it's background services. If I'm lucky.

Happened to me several times in the last two weeks alone. I vaguely remember it took me ages to get VMWare or similar off my machine.

Re:What killed the Linux desktop by icebraining on Wednesday August 29, 2012 @05:48PM (#4451539)
Then again, I wish ANY other OS would implement the column view Finder has. As bad as Finder is, column view is awesome.

Hmm, Wikipedia lists a bunch of file managers with column view support[1]. Here's it in Konqueror: http://www.konqueror.org/pics/konqueror-file-manager-col-vie...

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_file_managers#Ma...

Re:What killed the Linux desktop by hollerith on Thursday August 30, 2012 @01:10PM (#4455628)
>Or HFS+, which still has a global lock whenever ANY application wants to write to the file system. A GLOBAL lock. No other program may access the hard drive while one is writing. Insanity!.

Could that be the reason I had to disable Spotlight's indexer to prevent bouts of extreme unresponsiveness on my 2011 Mac mini?

Re:What killed the Linux desktop by hollerith on Friday August 31, 2012 @09:50AM (#4459672)
>I wish ANY other OS would implement the column view Finder has. As bad as Finder is, column view is awesome.

Sometimes referred to as "Miller columns" BTW.

Re:What killed the Linux desktop by mbq on Wednesday August 29, 2012 @06:12PM (#4451673)
There are nice terminals for Windows and you can install gnuwin32 & win-bash to get almost complete UNIX command-line experience without Cygwin burden.
Re:What killed the Linux desktop by tsahyt on Wednesday August 29, 2012 @04:32PM (#4450961)
I heard Windows PowerShell was decent. No first hand experience though
Re:What killed the Linux desktop by joe_the_user on Wednesday August 29, 2012 @09:54PM (#4452500)
The thing about the Unix shell is that not only is it extremely power and flexible, it is designed to work with pure ascii so it can used on many remote, bare bones machines and it really is there running on many remote, bare bones machines. And given all this there are many people with strong skills in that shell and a strong attachment to that shell (for rational and irrational reasons imho). With all this, it would be hard to replace this shell even with something that's better. That actually makes me sad since actually dislike using it since for all its power, much of it is annoying and bass-ackwards imho again.
Re:What killed the Linux desktop by jw_ on Wednesday August 29, 2012 @05:36PM (#4451471)
It's unbelievably verbose and the documentation sucks hard. Also, working on remote machines is unreasonably annoying. It is decent at manipulating structured data though.
Re:What killed the Linux desktop by Derbasti on Wednesday August 29, 2012 @04:56PM (#4451172)
But it is not Unix.
Re:What killed the Linux desktop by tsahyt on Wednesday August 29, 2012 @05:13PM (#4451310)
If Unix is what you want, you shouldn't be using a system that isn't Unix (or Unix-like in the case of Linux).

However, there's still Cygwin which is reasonably good.

Re:What killed the Linux desktop by Derbasti on Thursday August 30, 2012 @01:19AM (#4453113)
Except that it is dog slow, horribly out of date, neither really compatible with Windows nor Unix paths, and lacking support for graphical stuff.

Well, I use msys and eshell instead, which I find less jarring.

Re:What killed the Linux desktop by batista on Wednesday August 29, 2012 @03:50PM (#4450688)
>I far prefer the Windows 7 interface to OSX, it's just stuff like the terminal/command prompt that really lets Windows down.

I'm not sure. Windows has some overall design, but also has tons of design neglect.

One example: due to static compiling and linking, you often get programs (and lots of them) that still use Windows 98 like Open/Save File dialogs, instead of every program automatically getting the latest OS standard widget with late binding.

Or things like the Metro/Windows dichotomy in the latest version.

Windows always feels design by committee to me, and one where some manager can have idiotic ideas and no developer/designer can shoot it down.

Re:What killed the Linux desktop by seabee on Wednesday August 29, 2012 @04:46PM (#4451079)
That example isn't due to static linking, it's because they chose a particular style of dialog which is deprecated and cannot be updated without breaking backwards compatibility.

Software compiled in 1998 has no problem using the newest common dialogs if they used the standard API without installing their own hooks and customisation.

Re:What killed the Linux desktop by batista on Wednesday August 29, 2012 @05:33PM (#4451448)
>That example isn't due to static linking, it's because they chose a particular style of dialog which is deprecated and cannot be updated without breaking backwards compatibility.

I'm not sure what this means though:

"it's because they chose a particular style of dialog which is deprecated and cannot be updated without breaking backwards compatibility."

So you mean something like the Windows API featured 2-3 different dialog styles and they set some option / flag in their code to use one that was subsequently not updated by MS?

Could be. But at least the dialog style could change, it seems in Windows API all drawing is hardcoded, so the dialog also comes with the old style buttons etc.

MS should have continue to offer the dialog styles they once had as options instead of deprecating them. But even failing that, they should at least made it so that their graphical elements (sub-widgets like buttons, text fields etc) are kept updated. That doesn't involve changing the API or binary compatibility will the calling program.

Also, seeing those dialogs in old shareware/commercial programs when run on modern Windows is one thing. But one also sees them in some very-rarely-updated MS applications that MS ships with Windows. At least you did, until Vista (haven't used Windows since).

Another infuriating thing from Windows dialogs of old --that still appear in apps: when the size of text-entries, icon fields etc is too small, but the dialog is not resizable.

Re:What killed the Linux desktop by Someone on Wednesday August 29, 2012 @06:01PM (#4451620)
"it seems in Windows API all drawing is hardcoded, so the dialog also comes with the old style buttons etc. "

IIRC, the particular style allows applications to paint on top of the system dialogs, add controls, etc. The API call cannot know when or where drawing will take place (or whether it will happen at all), so it cannot use any other screen real estate than what it always used. That means controls must stay the same size and exact location. That rules out shadows, font changes, etc, so the control must forever stay as it was in the dark ages.

On the positive side: I understand that the Windows 3.1 "Add Font" dialog is gone in Windows 7. Unfortunately, not everybody seems to be happy about it: http://www.sevenforums.com/backup-restore/42035-restore-inst...