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Re:Where is my von Braun wheel? by schiffern on Thursday July 03, 2025 @12:37PM (#44456826)
>What makes water mass cheaper to orbit compared to nitrogen mass?

Nitrogen needs a high-pressure bottle which is wasted mass, whereas water you can send to orbit in thin plastic and fabric bags like they do on ISS.

Often on ISS they're actually shipping oxygen as water, but still the wasted mass of water being 11% hydrogen plus the wasted mass of the bag is more efficient than a high pressure gas cylinder.

Re:Where is my von Braun wheel? by wildzzz on Thursday July 03, 2025 @01:54PM (#44457575)
We already built LOX tanks into rockets. Just send up a tank of LN2. It doesn't need the strength of a bottle, you just need thermally insulating materials which can be very light.
Re:Where is my von Braun wheel? by PaulHoule on Thursday July 03, 2025 @12:48PM (#44456953)
For my baby Bernal sphere it is shipped either as LN2 or NH4. The large airspace needs a lot of it compared to the water inventory. O’Neill’s published designs except for the Stanford torus were much worse.

The water inventory of both N2 and H2O on Earth (0.2 cubic km of water per inhabitant) is extravagant. Ceres is roughly 50% water (like the generic outer solar system or interstellar object) and we could use all of it but it adds up to about the mass of our oceans, and that is most of the water inventory the asteroid belt.

I’ve looked at various large rotating structures up to the size of the Banks Orbital and concluded you could solve the structural problems if you could make a reliable journal bearing (structural parts don’t need to be spun) that could handle the velocity difference but no matter what you cannot afford tall mountains or deep oceans.

Re:Where is my von Braun wheel? by schiffern on Thursday July 03, 2025 @01:17PM (#44457233)
Agreed, liquid is probably the way to go.

Very tempting to swap nitrogen for helium, but AIUI the main downsides are that the speed of sound is higher so air will leak out from a breach faster, and there may be negative effects on flammability due to helium's high thermal conductivity and low specific heat.

Re:Where is my von Braun wheel? by Terr_ on Friday July 04, 2025 @03:23AM (#44462002)
Helium gas also leaks a lot, even when everything is normal.
Re:Where is my von Braun wheel? by hotshiitake on Thursday July 03, 2025 @01:04PM (#44457105)
Probably a naive question but would it possible for us to skim gasses from LEO for use in space stations?
Re:Where is my von Braun wheel? by 05 on Thursday July 03, 2025 @05:18PM (#44459275)
Putting aside issues with capturing basically vacuum at 8km/s, by doing that you're going to lose impulse that you're going to have to regain, spending more mass in fuel+oxidizer than you gained in gathered gases, unless you use ion propulsion (which ISS doesn't). Also most of what you're going to capture at 400km is going to be atomic oxygen and helium, N2/N share is only a couple percentage points at that altitude.. [0]

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heterosphere

Re:Where is my von Braun wheel? by schiffern on Friday July 11, 2025 @11:54PM (#44539152)
Clearly you would not choose similar operational parameters and propulsion as the ISS when designing an atmospheric scooper. Not sure why you would assume so, honestly.

There have been proposals to use scoopers with structurally integrated electrodynamic propulsion ("tether without the tether"),[0] which would use zero propellant.

[0] https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=44542.msg1...