Your "terrorists" militias predate formation of Islamic Republic of Iran, in 1979. Yasser Arafat, and all other Palestinian liberators were also labeled as terrorists.

Can you name one Palestinian who has fought against Israel's occupation and is not considered a terrorist by you?

https://jcpa.org/the-parallels-between-yahya-sinwar-and-yass...

All of that Palestine resistance to Israel has accomplished nothing except misery for Palestinians.

They should just let the second Holocaust happen?

The west bank seems to not be doing so bad compared to Gaza.

You should stop lying about a non-existent genocide. Israel just wants to live in peace. This is why 20% of the Israel population is Arab and 0% of Gaza and the West Bank are Jewish.

Just living in peace while stealing the homes and land of the locals.

"Just living in peace while stealing the homes and land of the locals."

No. Jews migrated to Ottoman controlled land legally and paid for it. Palestinians were offered their own country but rejected that offer in favor of trying to expel the Jews and taking their land. Then they spend the next 70 years trying and failing to destroy Israel and rejecting every offer of their own country.

The Nakba was a big nothingburger and nothing is going in in the west bank right?

This is getting old, do you have any fresh hasbara for me?

The Nakba happened when Palestinians foolishly rejected the offer from the UN for their own country and decided to destroy Israel instead. They failed miserably just like they have been failing ever since.

Palestinians need to take responsibility for reacting to the formation of Israel in the most self-destructive way possible.

I asked for fresh hasbara.

Labeling arguments as 'hasbara' is just a way to avoid addressing the historical facts I've presented.

Do you dispute that Jews legally purchased land during the Ottoman period?

Do you dispute that the 1947 UN partition was rejected by Arab leadership?

Do you dispute that five Arab armies invaded in 1948?

Which specific historical claim do you think is incorrect?

Using "hasbara" as a dismissal tactic is essentially admitting you can't refute my factual claims on their merits.

I don't. But I don't find them particularly relevant to the situation in Gaza and the continued colonization/land stealing in the west bank.

For example, you recognize the fledgling UN's decision to partition the land but don't recognize any decision they've taken since, not like you're following those borders anyway.

I can all it Israeli state propaganda talking points if you want, hasbara is less of a mouthful though.

"I don't find them particularly relevant to the situation in Gaza"

Do you find the Hamas attacks that killed 1,200 people relevant?

"you recognize the fledgling UN's decision to partition the land but don't recognize any decision they've taken since"

I know that the Palestinians have rejected at least two excellent offers from Israel for their own country. If they had accepted them they would be VASTLY better off then they are now.

You cannot absolve the Palestinians of their responsibility for their shitty lives due to their terrible decisions.

>Do you find the Hamas attacks that killed 1,200 people relevant?

Relevant as far as its the latest and greatest excuse Israel can use to take more land and genocide the locals. US had a long history of doing the same when it came to Indians.

I wouldn't fault jews and other minorities in the holocaust for fighting back against their oppressors either.

Calling the brutal murder of 1,200 people an "excuse" is pretty despicable. That would be like if a Mexican cartel invaded the US and killed 40,000 people.

" US had a long history of doing the same when it came to Indians."

Yes, and you don't see Native Americans trying to take back their land using military force and mass murder because they aren't evil and aren't stupid.

"I wouldn't fault Jews and other minorities in the holocaust for fighting back against their oppressors either."

The only people oppressing Palestinians in Gaza are Hamas.

Israel cleared out of Gaza 17 years ago.

Gaza immediately became a mafia state run by the Muslim brotherhood and subsisting off handouts and extortion. Consider it a failed experiment in self rule.

A state with no borders that anything can cross without Israels approval, a state made up largely of refugees fleeing the Nakba, a state without much arable land, a state that had most of its infrastructure including its airport destroyed when Israel left it. Its like they were set up for success.

Both Israel and Egypt attempt to limit the weapons that the terrorists that run Gaza can get access to.

Can you name a single Palestinian who has actually moved the needle on a functioning democratic Palestinian state? Every single current and former Palestinian leader has been heavily theocratic, has pledged to kill Jews wherever they are and has never considered sharing any of whatever power he’s gotten with anyone else.

Do you stop to ask what creates the environment where the most extreme views flourish and gain traction?

I always marvel at the extreme racism required to so thoroughly dehumanize an entire population.

Islamist majority?

Nope, Islamism is an extreme position so that gets you no further in the answering the question. What set the stage for an Islamist majority? Again I assert that extreme politics don't develop in vacuums.

And here you are continuing to dehumanize and remove all agency for an entire religion now. Truly the bigotry required to hold these beliefs is breathtaking.

I'm not doing that in any way. Islamism != Islam, and I'm not suggesting that the entire population of following Islamist beliefs, only that there's an environment where it can gain traction.

Please explain your reading if you're going to make such personal attacks.

You’re missing the point because you’re so unaware of your own enormous bigotry.

All Muslims have their own agency. They are all humans capable of making their own decisions. And like all humans are happy to be held responsible for the decisions they make.

You do not believe the above.

I'm honestly not sure if this is satire or why you feel the need to tell me what I believe.

> All Muslims have their own agency. They are all humans capable of making their own decisions. And like all humans are happy to be held responsible for the decisions they make.

And I'm not sure why you feel I don't recognise the agency of Muslims?

As I said previously please make an argument or explain your position and I'll respond to it, but it feels absurd to entertain these seemingly baseless ad hominems.

I grew up in a conflict zone and feel that I have some understanding of the group dynamics. That's totally reasonable and I encourage you to ask yourself if your apparent anger and incredulity here is misplaced.

You’re speaking in innuendo so I’m responding in kind. Plainly state your argument, which you haven’t done yet, instead opting for an odd vaguely veiled bigotry about Muslims’ ability to make their own choices.

I'm saying that Western colonial practices and violent Zionism created a situation where many people in Palestine, and beyond, felt no other choice but to support a violent counter campaign. Your turn.

Oh lol. So you’re just ignorant. There was no serious attempt at western colonialism in Judea and Samaria or any part of the ME. As soon as the Ottoman Empire fell the LoN immediately created a plan for self rule in that area that ended up having a shorter timeline than the occupation of Germany following WWII. Look up when Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt, etc all became independent nations. Even Israel’s timeline from the end of WWI to its establishment was less than 30 years.

“Violent Zionism” was inconsequential in comparison to the violence the Muslim population visited upon their Jewish (Zionist) neighbors/subjects/citizens from 700CE when Islam was formed through 1947 when the partition plan was proposed, and all the way to the present day.

So again, I say, you’re dehumanizing Muslims by refusing to acknowledge that they are responsible for their own actions. Because even if everything you claim was true (it isn’t), you are still claiming they are not capable of bearing responsibility for their own actions and instead any violence they commit is the responsibility of nebulous “western colonialism” and inchoate “violent zionism”. The bigotry requires to totally remove an entire religion’s agency is, as I said before: breathtaking.

The thing is it doesn't help. Yes of course the horrible situation of the palestinians promotes extremism, but you still have to face that there is a lot of extremism. What was Israel to do before October 7 (besides making sure Oct 7 could not happen)? Of course there are ppints where history could have gone in a better direction but I really don't see an easy way for Israel to achieve a better situation. Say they had withdraw from the west bank in 2018 for some reason. Who says that Oct 7 would still not have happened on a much greater scale? In fact I find it quite likely that it would. And then you might be looking at 3000 dead Israelis instead. The only rational reason for the Oct 7 attacks I can see is that Hamas wants to incite as much violence as possible to put as much political pressure as possible on Israel due to the inevitable retaliation. So Oct 7 would have made even more sense, as the deoccupation of the west bank is far from the total of their political goals.

No? The issue US had with the PLF is that it was controlled by Marxist. the theocratic pro-palestine movements didn't start until the 90s.

Totally false. Every single palestinian org has been founded by and for Muslims.

Yeah, PLFP was not at all Marxist-Leninist, used islamic arguments and not ethnomarxist ones, opposed women taking a role in politics and forced them to wear the hijab, didnt allow Coptic Christians or Jews in the movement, and talked about god and not oppression of workers /s

You just have no idea of what you're talking about.

This is like complaining that Nat Turner didn't move the needle on moving the US toward universal suffrage.

Right because slaves in the American south were offered freedom tens of times but refused it always bec it might have involved some compromise they didn’t like. These childish comparisons don’t even pass the sniff test.

When were the Palestinians able to exercise their legally affirmed right of return? I must have missed that.

In 1947 when they chose to leave. In 1948-1967 when the Arab states controlled 95% of the land that these Arabs want to return to. Wars have consequences, if you initiate a war and lose, you’re not gonna get everything back. That’s the risk of war.

I have no idea what “legally affirmed” means in the context of sovereign states. The UN, or even the UNSC passing something doesn’t actually mean anything as it applies to sovereign nations. Paraphrasing Andrew Jackson: a law is only as good as the ability to enforce it. A bunch of random people agreeing to something even if they call themselves “The United Nations” doesn’t mean anything if that group of friends doesn’t have the will or ability to enforce whatever they’ve agreed to. They’re akin to you and your drinking buddies passing out edicts after one to many dry martinis.

If you fight in an active civil war you are not a terrorist (1948 Arab-Israeli war)

If you strike military targets of an occupation force in a time of guerilla warfare you are not a terrorist. (Many palestinian fighters when there is an active conflict with Israel)

If you strike military targets of an occupation force in a time of relative peace, and your reignition of violence has no goal of achieving anything for your people, you are probably not a terrorist, but probably doing something wrong and stupid and horrible that hurts your own civilians, driven by nationalism or ideology or whatever. (Palestinian fighters on October 7 that struck military bases for example).

If you strike civilian targets or tage hostages, you are a terrorist. And worse if you do it at a time of relative peace to ignite violence against your own people. Hamas, Hezbollah and the Houthi's have engaged in plenty of the latter since a long time.

By the way, if you level a building with 8 militants and 20 civilians that is brutal urban warcare but not terrorism. If you go to a festival and kill predominantly hundreds of civilians, that's terrorism.