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Re:Europe needs digital sovereignty – and Microsoft has just... by mytailorisrich on Tuesday June 10, 2025 @05:23AM (#44234488)
Countries are sovereign and what is called "international law" are voluntary agreements among countries.
Re:Europe needs digital sovereignty – and Microsoft has just... by spwa4 on Tuesday June 10, 2025 @06:17AM (#44234896)
Following such agreements, once signed, is also voluntary. And the track record, to put it mildly, is not good. In this situation, just to name one example, hamas and the PA have both promised to arrest any terrorists they know of (because in trade they would gain the right to sue Israel), as well as respecting Israel's borders. Needless to say, their efforts are considered less than convincing.

And it's not limited to this conflict. Other examples include that in order to "join the international order", ie. the WTO, China promised to not support any companies with state support and to charge all companies normal company taxes. And while I'm not aware of definitive proof, nobody seriously believes they are doing this. The agreement also outlaws what they're (very publicly) doing with loans in the belt and road initiative, by the way.

Or other examples: the US, France, the UK and other countries specifically signed that if Russia invaded Crimea that they would do some combination of:

1) declare war on Russia (this is in all agreements)

2) support Ukraine economically

3) support Ukraine militarily

4) commit to attack Russia physically and help free Crimea "kinetically"

In trade for Ukraine denuclearizing. Whilst there are different agreements, let's just simplify and say that any particular agreement contains 3 out of those 4 provisions.

And while all countries (except of course Russia) have indeed supported Ukraine, none of them have followed through on their commitment to declare war on Russia.

I took a year of law school, because, you know, bored. And I do remember one professor (who was a sitting supreme court judge at the time, btw), described international law as "fiction, a guideline at best". The problem being that nobody, except the US and Israel, have any real intention of following through on international agreements. Of course, this was before the current iteration of the conflict, even before 2014. On one hand, his opinion has not changed ... but it's because he has since left us.

Re:Europe needs digital sovereignty – and Microsoft has just... by DiogenesKynikos on Tuesday June 10, 2025 @04:06PM (#44240889)
> hamas and the PA have both promised to arrest any terrorists they know of ... Needless to say, their efforts are considered less than convincing.

The Palestinian Authority works extremely closely with the Israelis to hunt down anyone who engages in armed resistance against Israel. Just think of how incredible that is. The PA, which is run by the Palestinian Liberation Organization, supposedly dedicated to freeing the Palestinians from Israeli oppression, is working with the Israelis to prevent Palestinians from resisting an occupying military force. The PA has burned a huge amount of political capital doing this, and is now widely hated by the Palestinians. It's seen as a collaborationist organization. So when you demand that the PA work even more slavishly for Israel than it already does, I don't know what you're seriously expecting.

> China promised to not support any companies with state support

China did not make a blanket commitment to end all state support to its companies. Not even the United States or Western European countries have made such a commitment. China promised to carry out many different types of economic reforms, and it did indeed carry out very deep and painful reforms. The Chinese economy is drastically different than it was in the 1990s. Most of the big state monopolies have been broken up, private companies play a much larger role than before, and foreign investment is much easier.

> the US, France, the UK and other countries specifically signed that if Russia invaded Crimea that they would do some combination of

No, the US, France and UK never committed to defend Ukraine militarily. The Budapest Memorandum just said that each country agreed not to attack Ukraine, and that they would discuss with one another if there were any violations of the agreement.

> The problem being that nobody, except the US and Israel, have any real intention of following through on international agreements.

Huh? The US and Israel are not known for following through on international agreements. The US might have had some sort of reputation many decades ago, but that reputation is thoroughly shot through now. Israel never did. It has always been a loose cannon on the international stage.

Re:Europe needs digital sovereignty – and Microsoft has just... by spwa4 on Tuesday June 10, 2025 @04:49PM (#44241298)
Hmmm ... you actually believe the PA arrests who Israel wants them to arrest, support China (and praise their efforts to comply with international trade treaties ... wtf), you are an extreme leftist, but against support for Ukraine (and in denial), and believe in the UN's treaties, despite what happened the past few years (decades really), and of course despite denying what inconvenient treaties actually say ...

Let me guess ... you have a membership card of some communist party. And not something like the communist party of America, that'd be too mainstream, but ... the Leninist party of Minnesota? Am I close?

Re:Europe needs digital sovereignty – and Microsoft has just... by DiogenesKynikos on Wednesday June 11, 2025 @09:16AM (#44247285)
> you actually believe the PA arrests who Israel wants them to arrest

This is just a fact. The PA works very closely with Israel. If you're not aware of this, you're just not informed about the subject.

> support China (and praise their efforts to comply with international trade treaties ... wtf)

I'm just telling you that China underwent massive economic reforms as part of its WTO accession. Again, this is simply a matter of fact, and if you're not aware of it, that means you've never read about the subject.

> but against support for Ukraine

I just told you that you're wrong about what the Budapest Memorandum says. If you think it pledges military intervention to protect Ukraine, you should read it again.

Re:Europe needs digital sovereignty – and Microsoft has just... by Aloisius on Wednesday June 11, 2025 @01:01AM (#44244348)
> Or other examples: the US, France, the UK and other countries specifically signed that if Russia invaded Crimea that they would do some combination of:

Point me to the treaty that commits the US, France or the UK to what you're describing - what amounts to a full blown defense pact of Ukraine.

The only thing I'm aware of that is remotely close to that is the Budapest Memorandum and that contains none of what you describe. At most, it obligates countries go to the UN Security Council if nuclear weapons are used against Ukraine.

Re:Europe needs digital sovereignty – and Microsoft has just... by bn-l on Tuesday June 10, 2025 @10:16AM (#44237090)
And? This agreement was good and just and is being broken for a garbage reason.
Re:Europe needs digital sovereignty – and Microsoft has just... by jaoane on Tuesday June 10, 2025 @10:59AM (#44237631)
“Good and just” are subjective.
Re:Europe needs digital sovereignty – and Microsoft has just... by spwa4 on Tuesday June 10, 2025 @12:21PM (#44238628)
The agreement between the US and the ICC has been broken a LOOOONG time ago:

https://www.hrw.org/news/2002/05/06/united-states-unsigning-...

This paints a stark negative picture of the US. However, of course, as soon as you consider intent of signing ... and the fact that some signatories to the Rome statute, like Palestina or South Africa, have signed it without any intent to carry out their side of the agreement, and that the ICC has in fact accepted these members (kind of).

The idea of the ICC ... was supposedly the same idea that created Gaza in 2007. If you give them something in trade for cooperating with the treaty, they'll cooperate. Of course, reality was they greedily accepted what they got (e.g. Palestina immediately tried suing Israel), but never carried out their side of the agreement. Palestina, for example, in their "Martyr fund", paid out money to people the ICC said they should arrest, but never took any action and several times publicly declared they would never arrest any Palestinian, no matter what they did, for the ICC. (their "Martyr's fund" paid money to Palestinians according to how many Jews they had killed and/or wounded [1], which the PA committed a $330 million per year budget for). South Africa has now twice publicly protected people they should arrest (Omar Al Bashir and Putin) against the ICC.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Authority_Martyrs_...

Re:Europe needs digital sovereignty – and Microsoft has just... by DiogenesKynikos on Tuesday June 10, 2025 @04:15PM (#44241002)
The Palestinians joined the ICC because they correctly concluded that they have much more to gain from the application of international law than Israel does.

The Palestinians are vastly outgunned by Israel, which militarily occupies the Palestinian territories. The Palestinians correctly believe that if everyone is forced to follow international law, it will be a huge net benefit the Palestinians. Of course, the Israelis have no incentive at all to submit to international law, because Israel can enforce whatever it wants through military force.

It's a David vs. Goliath fight. The Palestinians have very few cards to play. International public opinion and international law are two of those cards.

Re:Europe needs digital sovereignty – and Microsoft has just... by spwa4 on Tuesday June 10, 2025 @04:43PM (#44241249)
The Palestinian "project" is to destroy Israel (well, not really, the real project is to have the conflict last forever, for "aid"). That is not possible in International law. They have, obviously, not changed their mind.

Israel does not occupy "the Palestinian territories". It does not occupy Gaza (not even now, or at least only about half).

The Israeli have a LONG history of submitting to international law, including retreating from Gaza in 2006 ...

I mean, we can keep going with getting the facts and prejudice out of your post, but ...

The reality is that Palestinians have a dream of eliminating Israel. As they showed before and during the war of 1948, and the wars after that, they want to massacre Jews to achieve that. A long time ago, probably before even 1970s, with help from the KGB, Arafat El-Masri (that's his full name btw, "the Egyptian mountain of knowledge") was an Egyptian KGB agent that scammed the Soviets and the UN out of literally billions of dollars, and that was his only goal). Palestine was created (it did not exist, except as a Jewish state before 1948, a colony of the British Empire, and as a colony of the last 3 caliphates, and a Roman province before that) as a scheme to collect money from international institutions, and that's what it still is. Both Hamas and the PA want conflict, because that gets them about 800$ per month per Palestinian monthly (and that's just the public part). That makes it VERY important for Palestinian leadership to neither lose nor win the conflict, but to keep the conflict, the deaths, the suffering going for eternity, ideally from the side of a Qatarese pool.

There is not a single population on the planet, no matter how badly off they are, that gets 10% of what Palestinians get, on a per-capita basis. Palestinians are absolute geniuses at this. Did you know there are Palestinian "refugees" living in New York, who have never once left the US, who receive an UNRWA pension (tax free, I might add)?

Re:Europe needs digital sovereignty – and Microsoft has just... by DiogenesKynikos on Wednesday June 11, 2025 @09:23AM (#44247361)
The Palestinians don't have anything against Jews. If you frame this conflict in terms of antisemitism, you just fundamentally misunderstand it. The Palestinians really couldn't care less about the religion of the people who kicked them off of their land. The issue that that an outside group of people came in and took over Palestine, and expelled the native population. This isn't a continuation of the history of oppression of Jews in Europe. It's a totally different conflict, in which the religions of the people involved are completely incidental.

> Both Hamas and the PA want conflict

It sounds like you're still living in the 1970s, when the PLO was engaged in armed resistance against Israel. Those times are long gone. The Palestinian Authority (dominated by the PLO) has tried for 30 years to work with Israel. The last thing it wants is conflict. Israel has been bombing Gaza for 20 months now, and what has the PA done? Nothing. It's actually incredible how passive the PA is.

> There is not a single population on the planet, no matter how badly off they are, that gets 10% of what Palestinians get, on a per-capita basis. Palestinians are absolute geniuses at this.

Oh yes, how lucky the Palestinians are. I hear Israeli bombs are filled with butter tarts and pixie dust.

Re:Europe needs digital sovereignty – and Microsoft has just... by spwa4 on Thursday June 12, 2025 @03:58AM (#44255145)
> > There is not a single population on the planet, no matter how badly off they are, that gets 10% of what Palestinians get, on a per-capita basis. Palestinians are absolute geniuses at this.

> Oh yes, how lucky the Palestinians are. I hear Israeli bombs are filled with butter tarts and pixie dust.

Let me just address this claim in your style: "Oh yeah, that's impossible, because NOBODY has ever heard of large groups of people doing war so they get amounts of money they have no other way of making".

Wait, that's so common just about every language has a word for such people? Oh my ...

Re:Europe needs digital sovereignty – and Microsoft has just... by DiogenesKynikos on Friday June 13, 2025 @12:16PM (#44269863)
You are truly deranged.
Re:Europe needs digital sovereignty – and Microsoft has just... by mytailorisrich on Tuesday June 10, 2025 @01:10PM (#44239104)
Perhaps this illustrates one of the reasons why the US withdrew... I imagine many very 'nice' countries would try to go after the Great Satan.