> dishwashers that no longer have straightforward heating elements for drying

I love how Americans just can't figure this out, as if the German brands that are all three of better, cheaper to buy, and cheaper to operate simply don't exist. The American consumer is a person who cannot comprehend thermodynamics.

Perhaps if you referenced something concrete there would be more to talk about?

I'm only aware of Bosch, which uses some type of humidity-absorbing crystals that then desiccate with the heat of the next cycle. The marketing implication that this doesn't use energy would seem to be playing on that lack of understanding of thermodynamics.

Never mind costing 2x or more for the models with this feature, still seeing complaints of people online saying they don't get the dishes dry, combined with the all-too-common refrain that you have to use "rise aid" - ie elective chemical residue.

(I edited my original comment to focus on the failure of functionality over the lack of a specific mechanism)

With a broad brush, German brands are more expensive to buy, as a premium for the mythical quality reputation which never seems diminished by the high failure rates and incredibly expensive repair costs.

Cutting edge technologies can eke out higher efficiencies, but at the cost of all the downsides of new tech - cost premium, unproven designs, potential evolutionary dead end.

I'm in no way in favor of ending Energy Star, but it's risible to assert that stupidity is the only the only reason a consumer would favor a straightforward, easily repaired design over an over-engineered turd stuffed with controller boards that regularly go bad and cost more than the appliance is worth to replace.

This is laughably incorrect. I have purchased multiple high end refrigerators in the past few years and used energy star to determine the opex of them - it influences the high end too.

"laughably incorrect" ? Why so aggressive? For starters, I did not say it did nothing for the high end. Also I was talking about the Energy Star certification, which indicates an appliance has met some minimum efficiency requirements, while you seem to be talking about the Energy Star labeling of power consumption per some benchmark usage. I'm not sure if the pathetic dictator's shutdown is aimed at ending both or just one, but the efficiency criteria are the things people are always complaining about (just like I proceeded to do heh heh), so I assumed that was the main target.

(edit: oh, apparently the labeling is EnergyGuide, so that's not even Energy Star)

I don't know why I'm getting downvoted so hard here. If you read the context of my initial comment, I am generally supportive of Energy Star. But nuance is important.

> This is laughably incorrect.

Be kind. Don't be snarky. Converse curiously; don't cross-examine. Edit out swipes.

When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names. "That is idiotic; 1 + 1 is 2, not 3" can be shortened to "1 + 1 is 2, not 3."

Please don't fulminate. Please don't sneer, including at the rest of the community.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

> omitted a drying heating element

There is no "drying heating element" in dishwashers. Disassemble one and see for yourself. The same coil is used both for water heating and air heating during the drying cycle.

And I've so far had no problem with dishwashers drying my dishes.

> The same coil is used both for water heating and air heating during the drying cycle

Sure, if it's the classic design of the heating coil sitting exposed near the bottom of the wash tub.

But most newer dishwashers tend to have a much smaller heating element as part of the sump assembly, capable of heating the water only, because they omit the heated dry cycle. From what I've seen these days, you have to buy one without the Energy Star label to get back the traditional dual-use heating element.

And I haven't researched, but I'd venture a guess that those models are just the old designs still being sold, leaving out straightforward efficiency developments like electrically commutated motors. I've fixed many appliances myself, and based on what I've seen I have got little faith in manufacturers' motivations to improve much on their own.