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Re:Imagine telling 2010 devs that in 2025, collapsing a div ... by catapart on Friday March 21, 2025 @08:41AM (#43434939)
Music pretty squarely fits that bill. We used to beam it out over the air, now we transmit it through the internet, but everyone has always expected it to be free. And musicians are still expected to make a ton of money off of their music, if a lot of people like it.
Re:Imagine telling 2010 devs that in 2025, collapsing a div ... by lolinder on Friday March 21, 2025 @09:12AM (#43435253)
Your last sentence is inaccurate, though: there's a broad understanding that only the absolute top performers will make money on music and everyone else will make an amount that rounds down to nothing. Software stands out in that even the median software developer is making about double the median salary in the market as a whole, all while the products of their efforts are expected to be free.
Re:Imagine telling 2010 devs that in 2025, collapsing a div ... by rvogler on Friday March 21, 2025 @11:05AM (#43436561)
i think the analogy holds because there is also an established idea of software developers being passionate about what they do and hence create and maintain open source projects for free. never thought about it but music/musician <> software/developer is pretty isomorphic. also it simply isn't true that software developers make double the median - that's just true for the sv bias here and a few other hot spots.
Re:Imagine telling 2010 devs that in 2025, collapsing a div ... by 9rx on Friday March 21, 2025 @12:15PM (#43437439)
> also it simply isn't true that software developers make double the median - that's just true for the sv bias here and a few other hot spots.

On a US national basis it is true. Median weekly earnings for full-time workers is $1,192[1]. Median hourly pay for a software developer is $62.58[2], which, assuming a 40 hour week, is $2,503.20.

[1] https://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/wkyeng.pdf

[2] https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/...

Re:Imagine telling 2010 devs that in 2025, collapsing a div ... by lolinder on Friday March 21, 2025 @01:02PM (#43438198)
Yes, this. SV and similar are even more extreme, but if you take all software engineers across the country and compare to the nationwide workforce, we make double the median.

That may not be a fair comparison to the extent that software devs are concentrated in high CoL areas, though, so you don't see a ton of us out in the cheaper and poorer regions. The effect of that is somewhat ameliorated by taking the median instead of the mean, but not fully.

Re:Imagine telling 2010 devs that in 2025, collapsing a div ... by milch on Friday March 21, 2025 @11:27PM (#43443149)
I think if you compared the median wage of people holding at least a bachelors degree with just software developers they'd be closer together as well
Re:Imagine telling 2010 devs that in 2025, collapsing a div ... by 9rx on Saturday March 22, 2025 @02:48AM (#43444028)
That figure is in the above link as well: $1,705. So, yes, only one and half times more than the median bachelor degree holder. What is sadly absent from the report is the median weekly income of those who own a Ferrari. I expect that gap is even smaller.
Re:Imagine telling 2010 devs that in 2025, collapsing a div ... by 9rx on Friday March 21, 2025 @01:31PM (#43438606)
The entire premise is inaccurate, really. Nobody expects software to be free, even if they do not expect to pay with currency.
Re:Imagine telling 2010 devs that in 2025, collapsing a div ... by seec on Saturday March 22, 2025 @08:24AM (#43445259)
It is a lie to pretend that only a select few at the very top can live decently from their music. There are not a lot of musicians making big bank like your typical pop star, but there are plenty that just live decently from their craft.

Very often they are making less than a career in a lucrative field would bring but still more or at least equal to a median job. And they have a lot of benefits that are just not very easy to put a price on (freedom to do what you love is priceless for some).

I think there is a distortion coming from the "bottom of the barrel musician" that spends way too much time complaining instead of trying to improve (or moving on to something else if they don't have what it takes). The reality is that the vast majority of music produced/performed is so bad it has absolutely no value commercial or otherwise.

I don't think the software craft is very comparable, it's just not the same incentive and constraints at work...

Re:Imagine telling 2010 devs that in 2025, collapsing a div ... by crtasm on Friday March 21, 2025 @09:02AM (#43435145)
Watch the sales scroll past on https://bandcamp.com/ - a lot of people want to support artists and own music they enjoy.
Re:Imagine telling 2010 devs that in 2025, collapsing a div ... by AbstractH24 on Saturday March 22, 2025 @12:43PM (#43446961)
TIL bandcamp and bandsintown are not the same thing.
Re:Imagine telling 2010 devs that in 2025, collapsing a div ... by SketchySeaBeast on Friday March 21, 2025 @08:44AM (#43434970)
I've taken to buying CDs again. I still stream, but for artists I like I at least own the CD and might pick up some merch too because the reality is that only the big artists make a ton of money, or even any money at all.
Re:Imagine telling 2010 devs that in 2025, collapsing a div ... by maccard on Friday March 21, 2025 @08:47AM (#43435001)
I’m in a hobby band, and Spotify is important but we’ve made absolutely nothing from it with a few thousand listens. 50 people buy our album digitally and we have enough to record another track.
Re:Imagine telling 2010 devs that in 2025, collapsing a div ... by SketchySeaBeast on Friday March 21, 2025 @09:02AM (#43435143)
That's good to know. Yeah, I think Spotify is great for discovering new bands, but if you want them to keep going you gotta chip in. We need more than just the same top 40 artists in our world.
Re:Imagine telling 2010 devs that in 2025, collapsing a div ... by maccard on Friday March 21, 2025 @09:17AM (#43435307)
I don’t mind the homogenisation- I work in video games and benefit from it in that side.

But you are right if you want it to succeed then you need to chip in. We sell an album for £7 digitally, or £30 for vinyl + digital, but it’s basically just donating to us to say “please keep recording stuff”. We’ve made more off selling a single vinyl than all our combined streaming income

Re:Imagine telling 2010 devs that in 2025, collapsing a div ... by nunez on Friday March 21, 2025 @09:50AM (#43435693)
i don't think spotify is good for discovery, unless "discovery" means "more of the same."

i've taken to terrestrial radio for true discovery and bandcamp for digging into a genre.

Re:Imagine telling 2010 devs that in 2025, collapsing a div ... by SketchySeaBeast on Friday March 21, 2025 @10:09AM (#43435902)
Honestly, I've found Youtube Music great for discovery. There's a lot of metal bands that are small enough that you can't find their album preorders on Amazon that I found only by following the musical recommendations down the rabbit hole. In my city smaller bands from Europe don't tend to get a lot of playtime on the radio.
Re:Imagine telling 2010 devs that in 2025, collapsing a div ... by nunez on Friday March 21, 2025 @02:54PM (#43439601)
Interesting, especially since I really enjoy death/speed metal. I'll give this a try; thank you!
Re:Imagine telling 2010 devs that in 2025, collapsing a div ... by ljf on Friday March 21, 2025 @08:51AM (#43435037)
Great to hear some people are buying - I discover a lot of music through spotify (more through instagram to be honest) just wish more of the bands I like would play near me!
Re:Imagine telling 2010 devs that in 2025, collapsing a div ... by crtasm on Friday March 21, 2025 @08:54AM (#43435070)
Assuming you have a Bandcamp store, have their zero fees Friday events been helpful to your band?
Re:Imagine telling 2010 devs that in 2025, collapsing a div ... by maccard on Friday March 21, 2025 @09:15AM (#43435285)
I had a look and it doesn’t seem to. There’s basically no tail on our last release so what we actually need is more eyeballs, which means making more content. The marketplace is saturated, like the App Store, so really our audience is coming from organic growth - playing gigs, and trying to get radio play or playlisted on Spotify
Re:Imagine telling 2010 devs that in 2025, collapsing a div ... by crtasm on Friday March 21, 2025 @10:18AM (#43436001)
Good luck and do keep reminding your fans to follow you on there, maybe you have a demo/live recording that could be released on the day if nothing new? I get a lot of emails from followed artists doing a temporary discount code but even just a "hey this is a great day to buy our music!" + reminding me of past releases makes it more likely I'll visit and buy something.
Re:Imagine telling 2010 devs that in 2025, collapsing a div ... by SketchySeaBeast on Friday March 21, 2025 @10:12AM (#43435934)
I'm trying to think of a non-tacky/doxxing(if you care) way you could drop your band here so those interested could have a listen.
Re:Imagine telling 2010 devs that in 2025, collapsing a div ... by seec on Saturday March 22, 2025 @08:33AM (#43445294)
That's the thing with music, there is so much supply that even if your stuff is good, you are up against plenty of other good stuff that there is no logic to something becoming more popular than the other.

But if we are being realistic, if your stuff is truly great and unique, it will blow up. You just need to realize when you are not part of the great that you can do this just for your own pleasure, with no intention of success or anything like that, a hobby like any other...

Re:Imagine telling 2010 devs that in 2025, collapsing a div ... by AbstractH24 on Saturday March 22, 2025 @12:41PM (#43446955)
Problem with buying a digital album is the same one as buying anything digitally rather than subscribing - since it's digital how do I know it'll stand the test of time? Does it have resale value?

I don't know the answer, considering I don't want to find room to store CDs or carry around a discman, but that's the problem.

Honestly, I would rather listen on Spotify and Venmo the band $5 towards their next track. Not sure what that looks like in a scaleable way.

Re:Imagine telling 2010 devs that in 2025, collapsing a div ... by ljf on Friday March 21, 2025 @08:50AM (#43435024)
Merch is the way to go - if you really want to put money in the artists pocket.

Went to see Pete Doherty not long ago, and bought some hand typed (and signed) lyrics sheets/art from him - felt like buying something quite personal.

Re:Imagine telling 2010 devs that in 2025, collapsing a div ... by tuoret on Friday March 21, 2025 @08:54AM (#43435065)
CDs just feel so utterly pointless to me these days, since I can have the 100% identical content on a hard drive. Not trying to diss what you do, it's just a weird state of mind I entered once MP3 players and bluetooth speakers replaced CD players everywhere and I can't seem to shake it.

Agree about the principle though, I try to buy merch at every gig I go to. Makes me feel slightly less bad about using Spotify.

Re:Imagine telling 2010 devs that in 2025, collapsing a div ... by palemoondrop on Friday March 21, 2025 @09:07AM (#43435202)
Having something physical is nice, though. You can have the exact bits off the disc and maybe even the artwork on your hard drive, but you can't hold the album and look at it all together - especially for more elaborate packaging than your standard jewel case with inserts. In my mind, having something physical and not implicitly copyable makes it feel more real.

I'm in my own weird state of mind where I prioritize collecting physical over digital to the point of neglecting digital-only releases - digital is always going to have a copy somewhere I can listen to or purchase, but physical is limited and there's no guarantee I'll be able to get a copy later. This is probably an overly materialistic view, though.

Re:Imagine telling 2010 devs that in 2025, collapsing a div ... by catapart on Friday March 21, 2025 @10:28AM (#43436127)
I've been thinking that what I would like as far as "physical copy" of my media would be more like a card than anything that is actually used to play the media.

Something like an NFC-equipped greeting card (maybe more than just a cover; pages can be inside for fun stuff that used to be in the CD inserts/jackets/etc), that I could set on a stand which would then interface with the card and start playing music. Pull the card, playback stops. You get the idea. I just think something like that would serve both purposes - look and display nicely, while giving a conversation piece and more content from the creators; but not prone to damage causing issues with playback and as durable as you want them to be (could be more like HID Prox cards; plastic instead of cardboard. Or even more "exotic" materials. Lots of room for creativity).

Re:Imagine telling 2010 devs that in 2025, collapsing a div ... by SketchySeaBeast on Friday March 21, 2025 @08:58AM (#43435109)
If you want to do MP3, bandcamp has digital downloads and days when 100% of the proceeds go to the artists.

And I understand about the movement to digital - I typically rip the CDs as FLAC files and put them on a hard drive.

Re:Imagine telling 2010 devs that in 2025, collapsing a div ... by crtasm on Friday March 21, 2025 @09:06AM (#43435185)
And as well as MP3, buying on there gives you access to FLAC (+ multiple other lossless formats) for no extra cost.
Re:Imagine telling 2010 devs that in 2025, collapsing a div ... by rchaud on Friday March 21, 2025 @10:55AM (#43436466)
I am buying CDs too because vinyl keeps getting more expensive. However I do want artists to put more effort into making liner notes booklets.
Re:Imagine telling 2010 devs that in 2025, collapsing a div ... by rchaud on Friday March 21, 2025 @10:24AM (#43436066)
Was it free though? iTunes sold music for $1/song. Spotify and Pandora were ad-supported. People like me may have sailed the high seas as a teen in the 2000s, but those people didn't make up the majority of music listeners.

Today, I only buy physical media and from Bandcamp. The younger generation seem happy to pay subscriptions for Spotify and Apple Music. I think this has to do with mobile OSes hiding filesystem access and banning P2P apps from the walled garden.