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Re:In China, the rich and powerful can hire body doubles to ... by ck2 on Saturday August 04, 2012 @03:17PM (#4339355)
In the USA they just buy the way out of the system - I mean look at all the people in prison for the default swaps and banking scandals. Oh wait, there aren't any.
Re:In China, the rich and powerful can hire body doubles to ... by Jd on Saturday August 04, 2012 @03:37PM (#4339418)
There are various tiers in the intelligence of criminals.

Tier 1: Get caught. Go to jail.

Tier 2: Get caught. "Fix" the legal progress in your favor. Don't go to jail.

Tier 3: Bribe the people doing the enforcement. Don't get caught, because there is no one to catch you.

Tier 4: Bribe the people doing the law writing. Don't get caught, because you aren't doing anything "wrong" (technically speaking).

Tier 5: Buy out the mass media, so that no one thinks there is anything wrong about what you are doing any more. The clueless voter who lives from the juices of the media mogul is the tier 5 criminal's best friend.

IMO, most of the global financial system is somewhere between tier 4 and 5, with a bit of 3 (recruiting away the SEC regulators to big iBanks). Thankfully we still have a relatively free press in the US, so even if there is some lockdown there is a lot of ability to get alternative information.

Re:In China, the rich and powerful can hire body doubles to ... by jlgreco on Saturday August 04, 2012 @06:52PM (#4339947)
The problem of course occurs when the press is affiliated with companies involved in Tier 5.
Re:In China, the rich and powerful can hire body doubles to ... by Jd on Saturday August 04, 2012 @07:12PM (#4339995)
We have a weird situation in the US right now in that lots of information is available via the alternative press, etc., but none of it seems to matter during election time, in which the major parties and major media vehicles seem to be the only important aspects in pushing past the 50% mark, which is the defining feature of our democracy.

Thankfully we have the ability to operate presses fairly freely, but these little presses don't seem to matter all that much when it comes to fending off the thieves. I'm not quite sure what the solution is, but I suspect it involves a large number of people working together to build a system that is better than the current one.

Re:In China, the rich and powerful can hire body doubles to ... by ryanwaggoner on Saturday August 04, 2012 @04:21PM (#4339544)
I saw this story on Reddit yesterday. Really disappointed to see it here today, and even more disappointed to see such a cynical, shallow comment at the top of the page here, just as on Reddit.
Re:In China, the rich and powerful can hire body doubles to ... by maximveksler on Saturday August 04, 2012 @04:38PM (#4339587)
Leaving the type of response this submit is getting, which is subjective to your POV. Are you disappointed simply because this was posted to HN ?
Re:In China, the rich and powerful can hire body doubles to ... by stfu on Saturday August 04, 2012 @05:54PM (#4339812)
Most likely the top comment that tries to impose as a fact that the US and Chinese legal system are equally unfair.

Stating these kind of absolute, unproven, personal statements as absolute facts is (was?) frowned upon around here.

Re:In China, the rich and powerful can hire body doubles to ... by jonathanyc on Saturday August 04, 2012 @07:00PM (#4339964)
The top comment is to the US as the article is to China. No one is saying the systems are equally unfair.

Calm down.

Re:In China, the rich and powerful can hire body doubles to ... by Sam_Odio on Saturday August 04, 2012 @03:44PM (#4339436)
That's a pretty loaded statement. Your implication is that the credit default swap industry is rife with fraud but it'd be helpful to be more specific about what that fraud is, who committed it, and why they're not receiving an appropriate punishment.
Re:In China, the rich and powerful can hire body doubles to ... by jhuckestein on Saturday August 04, 2012 @03:36PM (#4339414)
They would be if they killed someone though. I agree the American system isn't exactly fair either, but the problems are different from China's
Re:In China, the rich and powerful can hire body doubles to ... by kooshball on Saturday August 04, 2012 @03:45PM (#4339438)
Re:In China, the rich and powerful can hire body doubles to ... by joering2 on Saturday August 04, 2012 @04:01PM (#4339494)
My favorite of all-times bad-guy is Mr. Kenneth Lay, founder of Enron, supposedly RIP. Supposedly because the story of his death is crazier than most A. Christie's books.

You can read more here:

http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/hoax/weblog/permalink/did_ken_...

Re:In China, the rich and powerful can hire body doubles to ... by ryanwaggoner on Saturday August 04, 2012 @04:27PM (#4339567)
So there's literally not a shred of evidence of anything being weird about his death except for the fact that it was good timing?

Maybe, just maybe, watching your life crumble and dealing with the guilt and shame of a conviction was a huge source of stress and caused a heart attack?

Nah, you're right, he's probably drinking Mojitos on a beach in South America and chuckling over all the suckers he fooled.

Re:In China, the rich and powerful can hire body doubles to ... by tsotha on Saturday August 04, 2012 @04:31PM (#4339571)
Yeah. Old guy dies of heart attack. News at eleven.
Re:In China, the rich and powerful can hire body doubles to ... by rprasad on Saturday August 04, 2012 @03:58PM (#4339478)
That is because prison is not the punishment for most of those offenses. Before you say shit about the U.S. judicial system, you should learn something about it.

SEC and FTC violations are civil offenses. The punishment for civil offenses are fines. Plenty of firms and higher-ups have paid fines.

Jail time only applies in cases where deliberate fraud is proven to have occurred. We all know that the finance guys were too reckless in their pursuit of profits. But recklessness is not a crime (and indeed, the only crime in the U.S. system for which "recklessness" is relevant is manslaughter/murder).

Re:In China, the rich and powerful can hire body doubles to ... by sehugg on Saturday August 04, 2012 @05:13PM (#4339675)
Here's a low-level Countrywide loan officer that got 15 years in prison: http://www.fbi.gov/phoenix/press-releases/2012/former-countr...

Here's the ex-CEO of Countrywide getting his criminal investigation dropped after settling with the SEC for $67.5 million: http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2011/02/19/criminal-investigatio...

I'm seeing a pattern here.

Re:In China, the rich and powerful can hire body doubles to ... by tedunangst on Saturday August 04, 2012 @05:20PM (#4339694)
Does Bernie Madoff's sentence lie on or off the line connecting your two datapoints?
Re:In China, the rich and powerful can hire body doubles to ... by KoulMomo on Saturday August 04, 2012 @05:51PM (#4339801)
Bernie Madoff's mistake is that he screwed over other rich people.
Re:In China, the rich and powerful can hire body doubles to ... by tedunangst on Saturday August 04, 2012 @06:57PM (#4339953)
I like (as in don't like) how that's the excuse for every counter example. Just like how Martha Stewart only went to jail because she didn't play golf with the right people.
Re:In China, the rich and powerful can hire body doubles to ... by hncommenter13 on Sunday August 05, 2012 @12:21AM (#4340573)
Agreed. Great wealth and connections didn't seem to help Raj Rajaratnam of Galleon (a billionaire) avoid prison for insider trading. Or Rajat Gupta. Or the ~60 other wealthy hedge fund managers and their associates who have been convicted in the investigation. (Or, for that matter, Michael Milken.)
Re:In China, the rich and powerful can hire body doubles to ... by giftedbygod on Saturday August 04, 2012 @07:23PM (#4340022)
In 1980s hundreds of banksters went to jail in loans&savings scandal. US went to the dogs: 1. Militarily: terrorism as tactics is just effective (especially cost-effective). US looks like it is trying to kill a fly using a machine gun. Good luck! 2. Politically: corrupt to the core. As weak as never before. 3. Economically: capitalism is really not about being in debt. It is about capital accumulation via savings. Currently, the US is the biggest debtor in the History of the World. 600% gdp - that's our total debt.
Re:In China, the rich and powerful can hire body doubles to ... by tedunangst on Saturday August 04, 2012 @08:38PM (#4340158)
Is your comment related to mine or was the reply link just conveniently placed?
Re:In China, the rich and powerful can hire body doubles to ... by tome on Saturday August 04, 2012 @05:19PM (#4339692)
You're seeing a pattern in two datapoints?
Re:In China, the rich and powerful can hire body doubles to ... by AJ007 on Saturday August 04, 2012 @05:59PM (#4339827)
I see a pattern of off topic stories being posted to HN
Re:In China, the rich and powerful can hire body doubles to ... by zcvosdfdgj on Sunday August 05, 2012 @05:02AM (#4340984)
you have terrible reading comprehension.

The article says he paid 67.5 million in fines to settle a securities fraud lawsuit brought by the SEC. It was a civil lawsuit, so the penalty if he lost (instead of settled) would have been a fine.

The criminal case was dropped because a grand jury would not indict after 2 years debating the issue.

The settlement has nothing to do with the criminal case.

And in the other case of the "low-level countrywide loan officer".. the level of fraud detailed in your link goes far and beyond the fraud occurring in the mortgage industry at the time. He had countrywide issue 38million in fraudulent loans, of which 8.7million went into his own bank account.

Re:In China, the rich and powerful can hire body doubles to ... by Karunamon on Saturday August 04, 2012 @04:21PM (#4339543)
>We all know that the finance guys were too reckless in their pursuit of profits. But recklessness is not a crime (and indeed, the only crime in the U.S. system for which "recklessness" is relevant is manslaughter/murder).

Perhaps this is a facet of law that people should lobby to get changed. The kind of wanton disregard shown by the finanical sector during the recent meltdown damn well should be a crime, if it isn't already.

Re:In China, the rich and powerful can hire body doubles to ... by smsm42 on Sunday August 05, 2012 @12:28AM (#4340585)
Does it also mean people who bought houses way out of their price range in hopes of selling them to the next fool and took out huge home equity loans and blew it on vacations and luxuries and then defaulted on their loans and by this contributed to the following economic crash - should they go to jail too? They were reckless without doubt.

I also submit it was reckless to provide mass government guarantee for subprime loans - after all, they are subprime for a reason, due to very high default risk, and when this risk materialized - and it had to materialize sometime unless whoever evaluated these loans as subprime was wildly mistaken - taxpayers were on the hook for these loans. Should people who supported FNM and FMA operations go to jail for that?

I'm afraid we'd end up jailing a real lot of people, including a lot of politicians, if we go this road. And if it would produce any negative consequences, we'd also have to jail whoever proposed such laws - as it would be deemed reckless to propose it...

Re:In China, the rich and powerful can hire body doubles to ... by Retric on Saturday August 04, 2012 @08:04PM (#4340106)
If recklessness while driving is a crime by it's self.

There are plenty of other examples, but many of these people went well past recklessness into fraud. EX1: If you setup a deal, know it's terrible and bet your own money that it will fail while advising your clients to do the deal with their money then your committing fraud. EX2: If your training documents tell people to commit fraud then your directly culpable.

Re:In China, the rich and powerful can hire body doubles to ... by stfu on Saturday August 04, 2012 @06:02PM (#4339835)
In my opinion rechlessness is necessary to bring society forward. This behavior induces change to the system and breaks the status quo. Sure, this has often bad consequences, but daring to break the status quo should be generally rewarded, and only regulated in cases where the negative impact on society gets too extreme/long term.
Re:In China, the rich and powerful can hire body doubles to ... by r00fus on Saturday August 04, 2012 @06:58PM (#4339955)
Fine. Except the "recklessness" was given AAA status by ratings agency, making it difficult to properly assess risk.

Risky investments guised as Safe should very well be illegal - it's fraud.

Re:In China, the rich and powerful can hire body doubles to ... by raverbashing on Sunday August 05, 2012 @03:44AM (#4340880)
It's so funny how I agree with you and the parent.

Recklessness changing the world: Charles Lindberg

But of course he didn't sell tickets to his first voyage

And sure, branding something it's barely valued more than the paper it's printed on is fraud.

Re:In China, the rich and powerful can hire body doubles to ... by pooriaazimi on Saturday August 04, 2012 @07:12PM (#4339994)
Do whatever the hell you want with your own money (set fire to it, if you feel like it), but if you're trusted with other people's money, you shouldn't be "reckless". It's not a video game that you can return to last "saved" point before your ridiculous adventures if they prove to be wrong.
Re:In China, the rich and powerful can hire body doubles to ... by Karunamon on Saturday August 04, 2012 @07:07PM (#4339983)
As a general rule of thumb? Sure. When you're gambling with other people's money (and lives to a point)? No.
Re:In China, the rich and powerful can hire body doubles to ... by anonymoushn on Saturday August 04, 2012 @05:28PM (#4339716)
Wells Fargo admits to 55,000 counts of perjury: http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/10/28/us-usa-foreclosure...
Re:In China, the rich and powerful can hire body doubles to ... by tedunangst on Saturday August 04, 2012 @05:50PM (#4339795)
The word perjury does not appear on that page.
Re:In China, the rich and powerful can hire body doubles to ... by beagle3 on Sunday August 05, 2012 @04:59PM (#4342636)
It does not, but in order to foreclose you state, under risk of perjury, that the details are right.

I've been following foreclosure stories for a while. The DAs are willfully asleep - hundreds of thousands of perjuries have been committed and documented, tens of thousands have been confirmed by the perjuring entity (as in this case), but the legal system is not interested in pursuing justice. Read Deninger's "The Market Ticker" or ZeroHedge for (almost daily) specific details.

Re:In China, the rich and powerful can hire body doubles to ... by tedunangst on Monday August 06, 2012 @04:23AM (#4344401)
Usually a perjury charge requires that you know the truth and tell a lie, knowingly and willingly. I'm not sure where negligence comes into it, but I think you'd have to prove WF knew their filings were wrong, as opposed to just careless. Also, it's rare to prosecute for perjury when the defendant volunteers the new version, as that would discourage past liars from ever coming forward with the truth.

In other news, I amended my tax return a few years ago. I do not generally refer to that event as the time I committed perjury.

Re:In China, the rich and powerful can hire body doubles to ... by beagle3 on Monday August 06, 2012 @09:44AM (#4345130)
> Usually a perjury charge requires that you know the truth and tell a lie, knowingly and willingly. I'm not sure where negligence comes into it, but I think you'd have to prove WF knew their filings were wrong, as opposed to just careless

Foreclosures are different, and for a good reason. One of the statements you make (similarly to DMCA takedowns) is something along the lines of "I have done my due diligence, and I assert under risk of perjury that the info contained below is correct."

If your bad foreclosure (or DMCA takedown) is taken to court, you should be able to prove that a mistake happened in spite of your due diligence.

Unlike amended taxes, or patent infringement, the results of an unjustified foreclosure might be fatal and essentially irrecoverable for the foreclosed party.

> Also, it's rare to prosecute for perjury when the defendant volunteers the new version, as that would discourage past liars from ever coming forward with the truth.

No truth was volunteered willingly here. They are challenged in court every day, and often shown to be fraudulent! After a lot of these, they went back to revise.

It is rare to prosecute when someone corrects themselves with a good excuse.

It is not rare to prosecute when someone admits perjury with no good explanation (and really, you should look into it, e.g. on Deninger's market ticker - the only explanation here is greed, which is not good enough). Unless you are a big bank.

> In other news, I amended my tax return a few years ago. I do not generally refer to that event as the time I committed perjury.

Perjury requires, as you stated, making a knowingly wrong statement. (Will does not enter the equation, only knowledge). If you knowingly filed a fraudulent tax return - then, yes, you have possibly committed perjury - but unless you are already on the IRS' sight, not much is likely to happen.

Re:In China, the rich and powerful can hire body doubles to ... by intended on Sunday August 05, 2012 @11:20PM (#4343560)
Afai can recall, only a few DAs are fighting - the DA of NY being one of them.

Usually the DA's office goes tooth and nail after offenders, so there must be a reason, I presume.

Re:In China, the rich and powerful can hire body doubles to ... by beagle3 on Monday August 06, 2012 @09:48AM (#4345150)
Of course there's a reason. Regulation is deeply captured http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulatory_capture (reading this article and all the examples in it, some of them very recent, will be an eye opener if you are not familiar with them. Or cause you to put an SEP field over the whole thing because it looks too crazy to be true)
Re:In China, the rich and powerful can hire body doubles to ... by sbov on Saturday August 04, 2012 @04:26PM (#4339563)
Because everything you said has nothing to do with money or influence.

Hint: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4339418

Re:In China, the rich and powerful can hire body doubles to ... by philwelch on Saturday August 04, 2012 @04:36PM (#4339581)
That's not enough! There's a recession, so the rich must be punished for it, due process or not! /sarcasm
Re:In China, the rich and powerful can hire body doubles to ... by cutie on Sunday August 05, 2012 @06:41AM (#4341120)
People are not generally angry at "the rich," but rather the fat leaches on the govt and financial sectors. I've not heard anyone complaining about the self-made man.
Re:In China, the rich and powerful can hire body doubles to ... by koenigdavidmj on Sunday August 05, 2012 @05:14PM (#4342675)
> I've not heard anyone complaining about the self-made man.

Usually those are disguised as arguments that there are not actually any self-made men, but people who rode on their society.

Re:In China, the rich and powerful can hire body doubles to ... by mtgx on Saturday August 04, 2012 @06:10PM (#4339857)
So what you're saying is that fines are just the cost of doing business for the big fraudsters.
Re:In China, the rich and powerful can hire body doubles to ... by cperciva on Saturday August 04, 2012 @05:00PM (#4339626)
the only crime in the U.S. system for which "recklessness" is relevant is manslaughter/murder.

Hmm, isn't there a specific offense of "reckless endangerment of a child"?

Re:In China, the rich and powerful can hire body doubles to ... by rprasad on Saturday August 04, 2012 @10:31PM (#4340394)
At the state level, yes. *But not at the federal (U.S.) level. These distinctions matter.
Re:In China, the rich and powerful can hire body doubles to ... by cperciva on Saturday August 04, 2012 @11:41PM (#4340513)
Ok. I'm Canadian, so all US law blurs together to me (especially since in Canada, criminal law is under the sole jurisdiction of the federal government).
Re:In China, the rich and powerful can hire body doubles to ... by hncommenter13 on Sunday August 05, 2012 @12:18AM (#4340568)
In the US it's a mix.

Quoting from a recent post[1] on a law professor blog regarding the relationship between the states and the federal government on criminal matters:

"...[T]he states and the federal government are not exactly co-equals in the criminal law sphere. The states have general police powers while the federal government has limited powers; the states inherited the common law while the federal government must enact statutory offenses."

[1] http://www.volokh.com/2012/08/03/can-federal-border-patrol-a...

Re:In China, the rich and powerful can hire body doubles to ... by tptacek on Sunday August 05, 2012 @04:11PM (#4342482)
Most criminal prosecutions in the US happen at the state level.
Re:In China, the rich and powerful can hire body doubles to ... by cperciva on Sunday August 05, 2012 @06:19PM (#4342853)
Well, in Canada all criminal prosecutions happen at the provincial level -- the Federal government defines the criminal law, but the Provincial governments are responsible for the "administration of justice".

Which can make things interesting when the governments don't agree on whether something should be illegal or not...

Re:In China, the rich and powerful can hire body doubles to ... by tptacek on Sunday August 05, 2012 @06:34PM (#4342892)
There is US Federal criminal law, and then there are the criminal laws of each of the 50 US States. Federal crimes are usually more serious (like espionage), but sometimes are just a matter of federal courts being the most appropriate venue (like copyright).

There are some standards that are widely applied across the states (like the MPC, some model jury instructions), and obviously the legal issues are very similar, but there are definitely major important differences between the states; for instance, groping a 17 year old in Alabama might be an aggravated sexual battery crime, but doing the same thing in Oregon might be a basic sexual assault.

Re:In China, the rich and powerful can hire body doubles to ... by Spooky23 on Saturday August 04, 2012 @08:29PM (#4340146)
In the United States, a US Attorney with the political will and backing could convict virtually any citizen.

One broad statute is honest services fraud. Basically, if you have a fiduciary duty to someone and commit an act that could reasonably be expected cause economic harm, you've committed a felony.

There are many other laws that could be used to lock up many bankers, assuming the will existed to do so.

Re:In China, the rich and powerful can hire body doubles to ... by rprasad on Saturday August 04, 2012 @10:30PM (#4340393)
The honest services fraud statute was struck down earlier this year...
Re:In China, the rich and powerful can hire body doubles to ... by kenster07 on Saturday August 04, 2012 @05:35PM (#4339743)
In China, financial fraud is punishable by death. It is at once crude and effective. The subprime bubble may never have ever occurred if the perpetrators knew they would literally be risking their lives.
Re:In China, the rich and powerful can hire body doubles to ... by tedunangst on Saturday August 04, 2012 @05:52PM (#4339805)
It is only effective against people the party doesn't like. State sanctioned fraud is less frequently punished.
Re:In China, the rich and powerful can hire body doubles to ... by ktizo on Saturday August 04, 2012 @06:40PM (#4339919)
In that case why can jaywalkers be charged with the crime of reckless endangerment in the US without anyone killed, or hurt?

Reckless endangerment in Nevada occurs when someone allegedly "neglects any duty imposed by law in willful or wanton disregard of the safety of persons or property." So if a police officer believes that you were deliberately jaywalking in a careless way that could hurt someone else, you may face reckless endangerment charges.

If no death or substantial bodily harm results from an alleged act of reckless endangerment in Nevada, the charge will be a gross misdemeanor carrying up to $2,000 in fines and/or up to one year in jail.

http://www.shouselaw.com/nevada/jaywalking.html