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Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by rob74 on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:07AM (#43254761)
BTW, Ukraine already had nuclear weapons, but agreed to give them up for security guarantees by the US, the UK, France and Russia (!) in 1994: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum
Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by flanked-evergl on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:17AM (#43254878)
The Budapest Memorandum had no security guarantees.

> Another key point was that U.S. State Department lawyers made a distinction between "security guarantee" and "security assurance", referring to the security guarantees that were desired by Ukraine in exchange for non-proliferation. "Security guarantee" would have implied the use of military force in assisting its non-nuclear parties attacked by an aggressor (such as Article 5 of the North Atlantic Treaty for NATO members) while "security assurance" would simply specify the non-violation of these parties' territorial integrity. In the end, a statement was read into the negotiation record that the (according to the U.S. lawyers) lesser sense of the English word "assurance" would be the sole implied translation for all appearances of both terms in all three language versions of the statement.[17] In the Ukrainian version of the document, the wording "security guarantees" was used though.[19]

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by Salgat on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:35AM (#43255169)
To clarify, the upholding of the security assurance is still left up to the discretion of nations in the agreement, based on how important non-proliferation of nuclear weapons is to them. It seems that recently, nuclear proliferation is no longer a concern for the US, hence they no longer enforce this agreement, which is their right, for better or worse.
Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by tim333 on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:42AM (#43255274)
I'm not sure any of these things are really enforceable short of someone taking military action? I think Russia has broken loads of agreements re Ukraine and nothing very much usually happens.

Even NATO article 5, I'd expect if Russia rolls into Lithuania Trump would ignore it.

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by Salgat on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @11:30AM (#43256868)
The two main enforcement mechanisms are economic sanctions and military aid, which even the EU has been involved with. Economic sanctions haven't had much impact but coupled with military aid has stopped Russian progress in the invasion. The problem is, with the US pulling out, EU big shoes to fill with military aid.
Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by flanked-evergl on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:46AM (#43255312)
Please cite the discretionary parts of the agreement that US is not upholding or will stop upholding.
Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by Salgat on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:49AM (#43255365)
The agreement has no explicit terms for whether or not nations must enforce it, that's left up to the nations to decide on their own. It was intentionally written this way, otherwise Russia would have never agreed to it.
Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by flanked-evergl on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @10:07AM (#43255638)
What discretionary action suggested by the memo does the US not uphold. All I am asking for is specifics here.
Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by Salgat on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @10:25AM (#43255877)
You keep misunderstanding. As I have already stated, the agreement lacks formal enforcement mechanisms, how it is upheld is up to the agreeing nations to figure out. In 2014 that was economic sanctions. In 2022 that was military aid. This is how political agreements work.
Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by ta20240528 on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:55AM (#43255451)
Oh yes, so many subtleties.

From now on anything short of "Can I press the red button myself?" will not cut the mustard.

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by flanked-evergl on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @10:10AM (#43255672)
Really odd that everyone is mad that the US is supposedly breaking an agreement that nobody can actually point to.
Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by ta20240528 on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @10:11AM (#43255691)
I never said they are breaking the word of any agreement. I just told you what they are are all thinking. And there is nothing you can do to stop it now.
Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by pzo on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @10:03AM (#43255564)
Thats kind of lawyer speak, not much different when insurance company don't wanna cover you because of some tiny font paragraph or different interpretation in the contract.

USA could before this war started (because they publicly on camera warned about invasion days before) tell Putin that in case of invasion they believe they cannot fullfill contract commitment so in this situation the contract would be void and they would have to return few old nukes to Ukraine. This would be enough deterrent and fair to justify.

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by flanked-evergl on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @10:06AM (#43255621)
There is no part of the agreement that US didn't uphold. That is not lawyer speak, that is reality. If you think I am wrong cite the part they are not upholding.
Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by pzo on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @10:23AM (#43255843)
By the lawyer speak I mean for the same reason insurance put some misleading wording that other party don't understand so that you can interpret it differently. I think the intent should more important.
Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by snowwrestler on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:15AM (#43254851)
U.S. support of Ukraine fulfills a commitment we signed, and which Russia broke.

The U.S. president doesn’t seem to care about international commitments, though. How does that work out in the long run? Would you do business with someone who tells you up front that they might break any promise they make?

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by flanked-evergl on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:18AM (#43254892)
There is no binding commitment that the US broke. You may not like that fact, but it is a fact.
Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by snowwrestler on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:34AM (#43255160)
The U.S. declined to provide a security "guarantee" because that would have amounted to a backdoor accession to NATO, and the U.S. could not grant that unilaterally. (An example of the U.S. honoring a prior commitment, by the way.) A "guarantee" would have required the U.S. to commit its military forces to the battlefield if Ukraine was invaded.

The U.S. instead provided a security "assurance" which was understood to mean a level of support short of U.S. troops on the ground. And in fact that is what the U.S. has been providing: intelligence and material, but no U.S. forces.

In other words, the level of support has been commensurate with the agreement signed. Until today, apparently.

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by flanked-evergl on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:44AM (#43255300)
Please cite the part of the agreement that US will be reneging on from today.
Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by pavlov on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:29AM (#43255080)
What's binding between sovereign nations anyway?

Ultimately it comes down to trust. And the current US administration is doing its best to destroy trust built up over the last 80 years.

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by flanked-evergl on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:34AM (#43255153)
You are right that most international agreements are essentially unenforceable, especially with a world hegemony like the USA.

That being said, the US still has not broken any agreement, binding or non-binding. So your point is somewhat beside the point.

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by tim333 on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:22AM (#43254954)
Not legally binding perhaps.

> Clinton and Yeltsin did promise Ukraine “full guarantees of security, as a sign of friendship and good neighborliness.” The two leaders also reaffirmed “the obligation to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state,” including Ukraine.

Still - guess you have to check the small print.

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by flanked-evergl on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:29AM (#43255074)
I'm not even sure they broke any non-binding agreements. But do share any if I'm wrong, I really would like to know.

The words you quoted came out of Yeltsin's mouth, not Clintons:

https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/document/30921-document-9-memorand...

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by tim333 on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:38AM (#43255208)
Dunno. "Clinton and Yeltsin did promise Ukraine “full guarantees of security" is from https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2024/01/ukraine-nuclear-...
Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by flanked-evergl on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:40AM (#43255245)
It was Yeltsin that said that, not Clinton:

https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/document/30921-document-9-memorand...

Also, that was not any form of an agreement, it was just words in a meeting. Nobody signed, it was not ratified with US congress as a treaty.

If you take that as binding then all the verbal commitments made to Russia that NATO won't expand eastwards should also have been binding, and they were broken first. I know you will get angry that I mention it, but it's a fact.

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by tim333 on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @10:25AM (#43255866)
Well, I did say not legally binding. But you can see how someone might interpret "Russia and the U.S. will give full guarantees of security" to mean "Russia and the U.S. will give full guarantees of security" if they weren't really paying attention?
Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by flanked-evergl on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @10:44AM (#43256140)
It was not even an agreement at all, nevermind binding. It was words said by the Russian president. Not a contract, not a memorandum, just words in a meeting. If Ukraine took one sentence said by the Russian president in a meeting as security guarantees from US (emphasis on the word guarantees) then they are the problem.

Security guarantees would at minimum require a treaty ratified by congress in US, something which I don't think is on the table any more at all.

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by hoseja on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:21AM (#43254935)
Has the US ever honored their word when it mattered? You do business with them because otherwise they roll up with warships.
Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by onlyrealcuzzo on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:26AM (#43255023)
No - it's because they roll-up with cutting you off from the US banking system - which is a prerequisite for basically all international trade.

This happens probably 100x more than rolling up with warships.

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by JumpCrisscross on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:37AM (#43255206)
> has the US ever honored their word when it mattered?

When it mattered? Yes. When it was against its own interest? Almost never, just like every other great power.

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by tim333 on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:48AM (#43255340)
In normal business the US is usually pretty good. A lot of the reason people trade with US dollars is the system normally works.

Also in matters of security they did a good job between 1945 and 2014 of keeping peace in Europe and stopping Russia running amok which was not that easy in Stalin's day.

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by pzo on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @10:21AM (#43255809)
I think the mess we have right now is because of many bad choices by US and allies since WW2:

1) They could reduce and rate limit lend lease to Soviet similar like they rate limited to Ukraine so buy themself more time until nuke is ready and then drop one on Dresden or Berlin (Berlin capitulated in May and they had first nuke in July so just few months later). After that probably didn't had nuke Japan. Also Poland and other eastern countries maybe wouldn't be a puppet state because Stalin lied to them and they would be under influence of US and Soviet Union would be weaker.

2) If they didn't have russian spy in their manhattan project then maybe russia wouldn't have nukes or had much much later.

3) If their didn't listen to british and US didn't overturn Mossadegh (instead of negotiating oil deal) then they wouldn't have maybe such a big mess in Iran and middle east now.

4) If the put some leash on Wall Street and their corporations then maybe they wouldn't let China to outcompete them so easily and now wouldn't have to worry about their own economical dominance.

5) If they would upfront told russian they will return nuke to Ukraine in case invasion because of broken contract commitment then they wouldn't have to worry about current mess in Europe.

6) Not much familiar with the whole history of Afganistan but still wondering what and how badly they US screwed that Afghans that were fighting with Soviet Union with aid of US turned agains them.

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by actionfromafar on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:33AM (#43255138)
Sure there's a lot of truth to that, but you used to be able to know what mattered to the US. It wasn't erratic. The magnetic poles of the US just flipped.
Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by snowwrestler on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:28AM (#43255066)
Yes
Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by morkalork on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:20AM (#43254918)
Trump is slapping 25% tariffs on Canada and Mexico because the USMCA agreement "is a scam" and he was the one to negotiate and sign it. After ripping up NAFTA. The USA's word is worthless now.
Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by cratermoon on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:16AM (#43254860)
Very technically speaking Ukraine didn't have a nuclear weapons program the way we speak of China or India having one. What they had was nuclear weapons left over when the Soviet Union collapsed.