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Re:Apple's Software Quality Crisis: When Premium Hardware Me... by diggan on Monday March 03, 2025 @11:36AM (#43243514)
I drank the "creating products that prioritize user experience over feature checklists" kool-aid back in ~2013 sometime, and got myself a first Macbook when I worked at a software startup the first time. While it certainly gave a more "premium" impression in terms of hardware/UI/UX for the first few years, around 2016 I had to move back to Linux because the software experience and the user experience is just too poor, outright buggy and changes all the time.

Even basic UX like "Can still see navigation map on CarPlay when someone calls you" seems to be just not thought of at all, or not being able to move the cursor left/right because the current iPhone keyboard mode only allows number. There are a thousands of these tiny cuts that just makes it such a pain to use daily.

Which is a darn shame, because the hardware is truly amazing, from everything from the displays, to keyboard and trackpads, to the general feeling and the CPU. But the software experience been so shit for the last decade that it's hard to justify going back.

Re:Apple's Software Quality Crisis: When Premium Hardware Me... by ohgr on Monday March 03, 2025 @12:19PM (#43244202)
I've got a Polestar 2. The map is shown inside the dashboard. The calls appear on the centre display.

I think it's a limitation of the vehicle's implementation.

Re:Apple's Software Quality Crisis: When Premium Hardware Me... by diggan on Monday March 03, 2025 @12:21PM (#43244219)
It is not, Android Auto still shows me the map while there is an incoming call, which CarPlay doesn't, on the same car. CarPlay's "incoming call" widget/popup blocks the entire view, I think Android Auto just displays something in a corner or something.
Re:Apple's Software Quality Crisis: When Premium Hardware Me... by capl on Monday March 03, 2025 @11:50AM (#43243702)
Nothing wrong with the "creating products that prioritize user experience over features" - or more accurately what Jobs said: create products that start with the user experience and the user’s needs first and then work your way to the tech (as far as I remember)

The opposite approach is starting with some tech and then trying to find a use for it, e.g. folding phones, second 1/2 screen on laptop, etc, instead of trying to actually create a usable, quality trackpad for instance.

The critique is still valid: Apple, for their software, seem to not have the same focus on quality as Jobs once insisted on. Their physical products are very much still top notch, and the products on the whole are still developed with this mindset as far as I’m concerned. It’s just the software quality that has taken a hit for some reason.

Re:Apple's Software Quality Crisis: When Premium Hardware Me... by legitster on Monday March 03, 2025 @01:03PM (#43244714)
Can I ask what the fascination with the Apple trackpad is? My other daily driver is a Thinkpad and I actually vastly prefer using the smaller one on it. You're not flinging your wrist across the zipcode and the clicks are more tactile.
Re:Apple's Software Quality Crisis: When Premium Hardware Me... by philistine on Monday March 03, 2025 @03:30PM (#43246328)
... I'm sorry but I think you're missing the forest for the trees. You might prefer a smaller trackpad, but then why? Just increase the sensitivity to reduce your finger movements.

Anyway, Apple's trackpad is good because it perfectly captures intent, whatever the situation and the number of fingers. It's flawless. You got half your palm on the side of the trackpad while writing? Nope, not picked up. You quickly flick with half your palm on there? Boom, got it. Five finger gesture? No prob fam.

Re:Apple's Software Quality Crisis: When Premium Hardware Me... by legitster on Monday March 03, 2025 @04:36PM (#43247108)
...unless that intent is to right click something. In which case I have to move across the vast expanse of trackpad to find the secret magic area on where it lives.

I'm not familiar with all of the trackpad gestures, but that's part of my big frustration with macOS in general - discoverability absolutely sucks. Half of the stuff I need to do is hidden behind a set of arcane keystrokes that I am apparently supposed to memorize.

Re:Apple's Software Quality Crisis: When Premium Hardware Me... by alabastervlog on Monday March 03, 2025 @06:04PM (#43247895)
> ...unless that intent is to right click something. In which case I have to move across the vast expanse of trackpad to find the secret magic area on where it lives.

I have no idea what you're talking about. I don't disbelieve you, I just don't even know what you're trying to do. It must be a feature I've never attempted to use.

I just click with two fingers, anywhere. Boom, right click. Didn't even know there was another way.

Re:Apple's Software Quality Crisis: When Premium Hardware Me... by legitster on Monday March 03, 2025 @06:25PM (#43248091)
Bottom right corner there's a hidden area for right clicking.

I never use the two finger click. I am particularly uncoordinated always end up moving the cursor and miss the target. Maybe it's just not for me.

Re:Apple's Software Quality Crisis: When Premium Hardware Me... by aikinai on Monday March 03, 2025 @06:48PM (#43248293)
You can also enable tapping (for left and right clicks). If you’re not pushing the trackpad maybe you’ll have less issues with the cursor moving while you do it?
Re:Apple's Software Quality Crisis: When Premium Hardware Me... by moltopoco on Monday March 03, 2025 @09:41PM (#43249639)
Everybody has different trackpad habits and they can be hard to put into words. For example, trackpads used to have buttons at the bottom, and you'd naturally use your fingers for pointing, and the thumb for clicking. Now the buttons are gone, and new users click with their index fingers, which can be tiring and inaccurate on some trackpads (especially older/cheaper mechanical ones).

Right-clicking also has a history. Because Mac trackpads only had one button (unlike PC touchpads), the way to right-click was to point with either your index or middle finger (high precision), then put down the other of these two fingers on the trackpad while doing the thumb-click. It will not move the cursor, so there is no loss of precision. At least that's what I did for a long time. (Although I don't lose precision if I hold down two fingers and press with one of them either.)

And it gets more confusing when Apple changes the defaults. They've flip-flopped between touch-to-click and press-to-click at least once. I'm not sure if using the bottom right corner was ever the default for right-clicks? And then they also removed the video clips that taught you some gestures in the system settings. And I think the whole "deep press" gesture is an anti-feature that only confuses people, the dictionary lookup used to be a three-finger tap and that was fine. But the Magic Trackpad 2 needed a headline feature, sigh.

Re:Apple's Software Quality Crisis: When Premium Hardware Me... by dsego on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @03:08AM (#43251744)
I think people give up too easily when they have to unlearn old habits. I've been using the macbook trackpads for over a decade now and it's more comfortable than a mouse. Just the fact that I can zoom in and freely scroll left and right makes all the difference compared to a mouse, so even when I use an external mouse with the laptop on a stand I reach for the trackpad for the gestures. It's like an extension of my mind at this point. And one technique that is not immediately clear is that to drag things you can click with one finger and drag with another, eg click on the icon with the index finger and then move it with the middle finger, easier than pushing the index finger around while keeping it depressed.
Re:Apple's Software Quality Crisis: When Premium Hardware Me... by moltopoco on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @04:21AM (#43252339)
Regarding dragging, macOS also has an "accessibility" option to drag with three fingers. (It used to be a regular trackpad setting.)

It is a rather obscure feature, and yet it has such a dedicated following (me included) that a re-implementation of it was recently merged into libinput. The downside is that tap-and-drag is disabled when three-finger dragging is enabled, which makes it a bit harder to go back and forth across operating systems.

Re:Apple's Software Quality Crisis: When Premium Hardware Me... by bdangubic on Monday March 03, 2025 @06:05PM (#43247911)
Settings -> Trackpad :)
Re:Apple's Software Quality Crisis: When Premium Hardware Me... by legitster on Monday March 03, 2025 @06:31PM (#43248144)
How was I supposed to know to look in settings for features I don't know exist?
Re:Apple's Software Quality Crisis: When Premium Hardware Me... by dullcrisp on Monday March 03, 2025 @08:06PM (#43248931)
It's usually worth checking.
Re:Apple's Software Quality Crisis: When Premium Hardware Me... by bdangubic on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @04:00PM (#43259754)
I don’t mean this in a bad way but would not expect this kind of answer from HN’er…
Re:Apple's Software Quality Crisis: When Premium Hardware Me... by bitsailor on Monday March 03, 2025 @05:53PM (#43247817)
Settings -> Trackpad and it's all right there.
Re:Apple's Software Quality Crisis: When Premium Hardware Me... by philistine on Monday March 03, 2025 @06:04PM (#43247894)
Exactly. They’re complaining about the defaults, yet you’re on Hacker News where most people on here probably have the most cursed settings you can think of.
Re:Apple's Software Quality Crisis: When Premium Hardware Me... by schmorptron on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @03:30AM (#43251939)
does clicking with two fingers not right click like it does on win + (common) linux?
Re:Apple's Software Quality Crisis: When Premium Hardware Me... by rqtwteye on Monday March 03, 2025 @06:04PM (#43247899)
Maybe I should try a Thinkpad but otherwise the Macbook trackpad is the only one that really works for me and doesn't feel awkward. The gestures are right and the feel is right. I agree about size. It could be smaller.
Re:Apple's Software Quality Crisis: When Premium Hardware Me... by dsego on Monday March 03, 2025 @06:32PM (#43248157)
Thinkpads are okay now, still mostly hinged and no haptics, maybe they have it on the most expensive carbons.
Re:Apple's Software Quality Crisis: When Premium Hardware Me... by dsego on Monday March 03, 2025 @06:32PM (#43248150)
It was the first good trackpad that supported gestures that are now common, things like two finger swipe to scroll (inertial scrolling was huge), pinching, two-finger for right click. I still see people using windows laptops with a mouse plugged in because in general windows laptops have touchpads that suck, and it was way more common a decade ago. Innovation in the windows laptop space was adding unusable gimmicks like a scroll stripe or right-click by tapping in a corner. And then apple introduced a haptic trackpad so you can do a tactile click anywhere, none of that bullshit tap to click where you have to keep your hand lifted so you don't accidentally tap on something. And windows laptops are still lagging behind, at least they got rid of buttons and have hinged touchpads, now we wait for them to catch up and add haptics.
Re:Apple's Software Quality Crisis: When Premium Hardware Me... by benwaffle on Monday March 03, 2025 @11:29PM (#43250287)
some windows laptops have a haptic touchpad from sensel, which is reportedly good
Re:Apple's Software Quality Crisis: When Premium Hardware Me... by consteval on Wednesday March 05, 2025 @12:13PM (#43269414)
To be fair, I use a mouse on a MacBook. Because even the best trackpad is still more cumbersome, painful, and inaccurate than a mouse.
Re:Apple's Software Quality Crisis: When Premium Hardware Me... by tannhaeuser on Monday March 03, 2025 @06:47PM (#43248272)
While still anecdotal, I'll give you two data points:

The trackpad on my Thinkpad E495 is hanging and has lost the ability to register clicks, and had been like that after only two years of use. I think the reason is that the whole construction with lots of space is collecting dust. You can use the physical buttons above the pad, and some people like this retro design even, but IMO it's just reducing space and adds a border and height distance for your finger to travel, so arguably outdated and objectively worse.

The Elan trackpad on my Thinkpad x13 gen 2 has been defective from the start and registers palm contact where there is none, with the effect that the touchpad stops responding like every 30s; this is a known defect.

Re:Apple's Software Quality Crisis: When Premium Hardware Me... by makeitdouble on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @04:54AM (#43252588)
The trackpad works extremely great with macos. The acceleration curve, smoothness of scrolling, multi-gesture support that closely matches the UI paradigms, click anywhere and it perfectly registers, etc. It truely is to me the primary pointing device for mac and I immediately bought the external trackpad when trying external keyboards.

But none of that properly transfers to windows, and most of its hardware tweaks become irrelevant. I also didn't mind the Surface laptop trackpads, but vastly prefer a mouse with extra buttons for windows machines TBH (there are a ton of great mice too, so all things considered it's fine that way)

Re:Apple's Software Quality Crisis: When Premium Hardware Me... by mike_hearn on Monday March 03, 2025 @04:14PM (#43246820)
Folding phones are great though. I love mine, absolutely worth the purchase price. It's like a portable mini tablet and great for reading.
Re:Apple's Software Quality Crisis: When Premium Hardware Me... by brailsafe on Monday March 03, 2025 @06:52PM (#43248330)
Worth the purchase price seems wild to me, but I guess things are all relative, have never owned an iPhone either, partly due to price and partly due to inferiority of software. That said, despite flagship folding phones seeming insanely expensive for what they are, they do seem like good and potentially better physical products than the standard static rectangle.
Re:Apple's Software Quality Crisis: When Premium Hardware Me... by mike_hearn on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @04:53AM (#43252580)
I'm not that price sensitive when it comes to phones, but I open and close my Galaxy Fold several times per day minimum.
Re:Apple's Software Quality Crisis: When Premium Hardware Me... by brailsafe on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @12:42PM (#43257788)
Ya everyone derives different value from their stuff. Is that how you're judging value for price or just the quality of the folding bit? I do quite like the Galaxy Fold, but I think my needs from any kind of smartphone pretty much could top out at a Pixel 2, rocking a 7 atm.
Re:Apple's Software Quality Crisis: When Premium Hardware Me... by mike_hearn on Wednesday March 05, 2025 @04:28AM (#43264617)
Yeah I guess I don't really know how to translate the value of the folding feature into dollars, except that I don't feel any need for an ebook reader anymore, so I guess it's at least base phone price + price of a Kindle or similar.
Re:Apple's Software Quality Crisis: When Premium Hardware Me... by brailsafe on Wednesday March 05, 2025 @05:47PM (#43273819)
> except that I don't feel any need for an ebook reader anymore

Is that just because you get a little more space due to folding? Personally I just loathe how much time my phone steals from me, and value the ebook reader on the basis that it has its specific purpose; no colour, barely does anything, I can't be messaged on it or watch videos, it's not as viable to use as anything but a reading device. But now that I think of it, I don't necessarily value those features in a way that makes me want to spent more than I did on it.

The way I think of the value I can derive from my phone is similar to how I assess how much value I could hypothetically get from an iPad Pro. Although it's nicer, faster, etc.. than my old as hell iPad, it doesn't do anything substantially different or that much better in terms of what I'd likely do with the device, and it seems like I only ever need one of them, since it's kind of just consumption technology, but if I was marking up A4 PDFs regularly, it might offer more utility.

Re:Apple's Software Quality Crisis: When Premium Hardware Me... by mike_hearn on Thursday March 06, 2025 @04:45AM (#43278257)
Yeah it means I don't need to carry about two devices instead of one, and it fits in my pocket due to the folding. In practice I often want to read things when I'm on the move or in bed or otherwise not necessarily near my other device, so having one device that does it all is useful. A case where the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.
Re:Apple's Software Quality Crisis: When Premium Hardware Me... by hyperdimension on Monday March 10, 2025 @09:32AM (#43320413)
"top notch" indeed. Oh wait, it's a 'dynamic island' now.
Re:Apple's Software Quality Crisis: When Premium Hardware Me... by Workaccount2 on Monday March 03, 2025 @12:03PM (#43243928)
I can assure you that if you "went back to linux" you are the furthest thing from the target audience you can be.

Not to downplay your experience, but it is almost certainly not what Apple uses for user feedback.

Re:Apple's Software Quality Crisis: When Premium Hardware Me... by diggan on Monday March 03, 2025 @12:05PM (#43243965)
I went back to Linux because I can at least decide when I'm ready for updates that changes my workflow. Neither Windows nor macOS gives me that experience. I wouldn't put Linux on a pedestral when it comes to UX/UI/design, but at least it doesn't rugpull me once a year (or more often with Windows) with forced updates.

As someone who cares deeply about UX that doesn't get in the way and allows professionals to do their work effectively, I'd be a hardcore Apple fanboy if the UX was actually good for that.

Re:Apple's Software Quality Crisis: When Premium Hardware Me... by gattilorenz on Monday March 03, 2025 @12:14PM (#43244124)
I’m not sure where you saw forced updates. I’m usually 2 to 3 major versions of macOS behind.
Re:Apple's Software Quality Crisis: When Premium Hardware Me... by diggan on Monday March 03, 2025 @12:18PM (#43244190)
> I’m not sure where you saw forced updates. I’m usually 2 to 3 major versions of macOS behind.

I remember being nagged about upgrading to the latest OS version at least once a day if not more often. Opening my wife's laptop just now, I saw another one of those notifications, begging to update where the only options were "Restart" or "Later".

Re:Apple's Software Quality Crisis: When Premium Hardware Me... by ndiddy on Monday March 03, 2025 @12:35PM (#43244382)
This is one of my least favorite aspects of modern UI design practices, the user doesn't have any agency. Everything's a choice between "Yes" and "ask again later".
Re:Apple's Software Quality Crisis: When Premium Hardware Me... by quesera on Monday March 03, 2025 @06:01PM (#43247879)
The update notification has a close icon when you hover the popup window. I use it all the time.

It'll ask me again later (a few days? a week?), but it won't make any changes immediately, nor will it schedule any changes.

Re:Apple's Software Quality Crisis: When Premium Hardware Me... by joemi on Monday March 03, 2025 @06:46PM (#43248253)
I'm a chronic procrastinator when it comes to updating macOS, and I can confidently say that it asks me about updating _at most_ once a week (if even that), not every day and certainly not multiple times in the same day.
Re:Apple's Software Quality Crisis: When Premium Hardware Me... by badc0ffee on Monday March 03, 2025 @06:58PM (#43248380)
You can turn off automatic updates if you want. You can even control security sensitive updates and App Store app updates separately.
Re:Apple's Software Quality Crisis: When Premium Hardware Me... by infinitelurker on Monday March 03, 2025 @07:23PM (#43248568)
You can dismiss that by clicking on the notification without clicking on either option. It will pull up the System Settings, which you can then close.
Re:Apple's Software Quality Crisis: When Premium Hardware Me... by robinsonrc on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @01:55AM (#43251196)
I’m currently 1 behind and the upgrade nagging is ramping up
Re:Apple's Software Quality Crisis: When Premium Hardware Me... by kjkjadksj on Monday March 03, 2025 @12:15PM (#43244126)
I basically stay on whatever macos version I have until they pull security updates for it. Seems to work alright so far. My last two OSs were mojave and now Sonoma (due to the new mac coming with it) having skipped all the rest including the latest sequoia.
Re:Apple's Software Quality Crisis: When Premium Hardware Me... by varenc on Monday March 03, 2025 @12:10PM (#43244058)
What Linux CarPlay alternative do you use?
Re:Apple's Software Quality Crisis: When Premium Hardware Me... by diggan on Monday March 03, 2025 @12:14PM (#43244114)
I don't, I still use my horrible iPhone 12 Mini for CarPlay. Waiting for it to either get too old to get updates, or for it to break before I move back to Android, I guess.
Re:Apple's Software Quality Crisis: When Premium Hardware Me... by yeison on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @02:51AM (#43251621)
So given the choice you still choose CarPlay.
Re:Apple's Software Quality Crisis: When Premium Hardware Me... by IgorPartola on Monday March 03, 2025 @12:00PM (#43243861)
Personal pet peeve: CarPlay not pausing what you are playing when you hit the infotainment power button is really dumb.
Re:Apple's Software Quality Crisis: When Premium Hardware Me... by eddieroger on Monday March 03, 2025 @12:02PM (#43243901)
That's not been my experience. If I hit power off on my volume knob, it's effectively pause to CarPlay. Does your car treat it more like mute?
Re:Apple's Software Quality Crisis: When Premium Hardware Me... by IgorPartola on Monday March 03, 2025 @12:10PM (#43244043)
Yeah both cars where I have had it treat it as mute. Maybe a setting I guess.
Re:Apple's Software Quality Crisis: When Premium Hardware Me... by garyrob on Monday March 03, 2025 @12:05PM (#43243967)
It pauses for me when I hit the mute switch though. I pretty much never power it off.
Re:Apple's Software Quality Crisis: When Premium Hardware Me... by catlover76 on Monday March 03, 2025 @12:09PM (#43244035)
> around 2016 I had to move back to Linux because the software experience and the user experience is just too poor, outright buggy and changes all the time.

Honestly, I have difficulty believing someone could find these kinds of issues to be less of a problem on Linux than on Mac

Re:Apple's Software Quality Crisis: When Premium Hardware Me... by diggan on Monday March 03, 2025 @12:13PM (#43244102)
If you haven't tried out the various Linux desktop environments for a long try, give it a try yourself. I'm having a way more stable experience with Gnome than I ever had with Windows or macOS the last decade or so, especially when I can chose when I want to upgrade, and I don't get nagged about it once a day.

But before that, I'd agree with you, it would have be stupid to prefer anything Linux over OSX or Windows, back when they were rock-solid. But today?

Re:Apple's Software Quality Crisis: When Premium Hardware Me... by sunshowers on Monday March 03, 2025 @03:45PM (#43246474)
I've been using KDE for around a year. It has a few bugs but overall it's much better in my experience than either Windows or macOS. KDE 6.2 and above have been really marvelous — I actually donated $100 (I think) to them because I was really happy with the work they were doing.

KDE actually has working focus stealing prevention!

Re:Apple's Software Quality Crisis: When Premium Hardware Me... by thedanbob on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @07:33AM (#43253708)
I've encountered fewer show-stopping bugs in Linux than macOS lately. And of the software that I use on both, the macOS versions have more problems. Honestly, the main thing holding me back from replacing my M1 MBA with a linux laptop is the wonderful speed and battery life. If the software problems get bad enough to negate those I'm switching.
Re:Apple's Software Quality Crisis: When Premium Hardware Me... by rcarmo on Monday March 03, 2025 @11:40AM (#43243578)
The CarPlay "limitation" is likely to be a road safety/liability issue.
Re:Apple's Software Quality Crisis: When Premium Hardware Me... by diggan on Monday March 03, 2025 @11:42AM (#43243607)
Yes, I agree. If I'm navigating, then an incoming call shouldn't block the entire screen with the avatar of who is calling, the map has to remain visible at all times. If even one person from Apple would have tested the scenario of "I'm navigating with a map and someone calls me", they'd see how dangerous their current implementation is.

I have had to reject/hang up so many calls because someone calls exactly when I'm trying to figure out where to go by looking at the map. In my mind, what Apple is currently doing should be outright illegal.

Re:Apple's Software Quality Crisis: When Premium Hardware Me... by liamwestray on Saturday March 15, 2025 @08:22PM (#43376079)
Preach!
Re:Apple's Software Quality Crisis: When Premium Hardware Me... by karmakaze on Monday March 03, 2025 @01:13PM (#43244825)
Apple's behavior makes sense when you realize that Apple caters to potential customers more than current ones. Their products are made to demo well to prospective customers. Every Apple product owner/user is inadvertently doing sales demos to onlookers.