Zelensky has nothing to lose at this point. If he takes the deal Trump proposed Ukraine will be paying the US and Russia for having been invaded in 2014 and again in 2022. And let’s not ignore the fact it was the US was propping up the politicians suggesting joining NATO and not renewing the lease on Sevastopol in 2015.

Nothing to lose besides thousands more lives, of course.

No real security guarantees also means tens of thousands of lives lost when Russia gets back into gear and tries to take Ukraine a second time.

Second time? More like fourth time. First there was Crimea, then Donbas, then the current invasion.

You are correct, I should have said "again".

Why would Russia bother going through this again?

The same reason they did it the first time.

Because after bribing Trump with the ability to brag that he won the USA 500B of minerals, they will be able to march in without any US interference...

That doesn’t answer the “why?” at all. To what end?

Are you asking people to read the mind of Putin? Or speculate? It seems reasonable to believe that at the very least Putin wants the territory he attempted to take when he first invaded, Kyiv et.al.

Why would that change if he hasn't?

Because both Ukraine and Russia have changed? Ukraine is war torn, deeply in debt, and no longer provides the strategic benefit to Russia it might’ve in ‘22. Russia’s economy and populace needs to recover from being war-oriented.

They have their land bridge to Crimea now, and if I had to speculate, they’d be happy with a neutered neighbor that can’t join NATO, essentially a populated DMZ. I can’t see what benefit in wanting to take Ukraine on again after the dragged out meat grinder it was this time around.

So speculation then. Here's some more: because it won't be a dragged out meat-grinder if he has a puppet US administration/political party.

> Ukraine is war torn, deeply in debt, and no longer provides the strategic benefit to Russia it might’ve in ‘22.

Expanded access to the Black Sea and natural gas/minerals were and still are very important to Russia. Aside from these, a total victory would allow Putin to cement himself as a conqueror in Russian history books.

The deal was a sham -- it came with no guarantees.

Don’t victim blame.

That is the real disgrace. This was a setup from day 1. A win-win to degrade Russia either way at Ukraine's expense.

I wish Zelensky made those points instead. "The US voted to open a NATO path for us, The US asked not to renew the base, and the US refused to negotiate with Russia when tanks were on our boarder. And now you want to walk away?"

Who do you think should pay for those invasions? Currently, it is the US/EU taxpayers.

I'd suggest the US, because they propped up the Ukrainian politicians who started saying it out loud they would join NATO (a big No-No since the fall of the URSS) and not renew the lease on Sevastopol (Russia's only naval base that operates throughout the year), but I'd settle with Russia, because, after all, they were first to cross the border with tanks.

Did trump fold?

Today he claims he never called Zelensky a dictator. You can call that folding, or being senile, or who knows.

It sure is awesome having a president where whenever they say anything that's obviously false, it's a toss-up whether it's dishonesty, senility, or just plain ignorance.

As sarcastic as this is and scary at the same time, when you’re right you’re right. Accountability is such a vapid concept in American discourse it is snipping the last vestiges of social contract between leaders and, well, those they claim to lead. Fear and loathing for what may come.

IMO it’s not a toss up, it’s just dishonesty. After a certain point we have to call a spade a spade.

Hell, even Trump supporters know it. Half the reason I’ve heard for that vote is that they know, and are relying on, Trump lying about various things.

Why vote for someone you know to be a liar? Not sure, but I did learn that non-Trump supporters generally take him much more at his word than Trump supporters.

Also fun, one reason can become another. Remember the sharpie-modified hurricane map? That could start as ignorance - he didn't have specific information on a threat to Alabama, but inferred it from a misjudgment of the information he did have. It could also be senility - he was given good information but he is unable to accurately or reliably retrieve it.

And then it became dishonesty when in the face of plenty of evidence to his being incorrect, he chooses to go on national TV and show a map modified with a marker, insisting he was right all along and no, it is the meteorologists who are wrong.

That was a day or two ago.

I think Europe will see this as a clear sign that Trump just attacked one of their own. I would not be surprised if the EU nations soon call a conclave to discuss establishing a new compact for self defense (and economic interest) that EXCLUDES the US. If this does come to pass, then yes, Trump and all of America will have lost.

This bright shining revelation of just how ugly and stupid Trumpism truly is (and America, by proxy) may realign world powers for decades, to our great loss.

That is an entirely different claim than "trump folds" if anyone pushes back, which doesnt seem at all accurate to me. If anything, he digs in his heels.

The only things that seem to sway him is the sentiment of his voters and the economy.

Bully or not, I think the entire schoolyard theory that bullies fold when pushed back is bunk, cartoon logic. Did Russia give up and go home when Ukraine pushed back?

Maybe start talking about nuclear proliferation within europe. Put more cards on the Table.

IMO, taking personal shots or in this case escorting Zelensky out because he pushed back is folding. That's not strength, it's petulant child energy who didn't get their way. You saw the same thing in the debates over crowd size.

A lot of strange definitions of folding in the responses.

I would consider "folding" to be backing down and giving in to whatever Zelensky requests.

Throwing a tantrum, embarrassing oneself, or even harming your own interests is distinct from folding.

If you tell a mugger, "what are you going to do, shoot me" and they do, the mugger is stupid but didn't fold.

I, too, think that they did and underestimated Zelenskyy. Trump would love to sell his deal. Now he just embarrassed himself and his nation again.