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Re:Ingesting PDFs and why Gemini 2.0 changes everything by petesergeant on Wednesday February 05, 2025 @11:55PM (#42959232)
The parent is suggesting that temperature only applies at the generation step, but the choice of backend “expert model” that a request is given to (and then performs the generation) is non-deterministic. Rather than being a single set of weights, there are a few different sets of weights that constitute the “expert” in MoE. I have no idea if that’s true, but that’s the assertion
Re:Ingesting PDFs and why Gemini 2.0 changes everything by brookst on Thursday February 06, 2025 @12:27AM (#42959382)
I don't think it makes sense? Somewhere there has to be a RNG for that to be true. MOE itself doesn't introduce randomness, and the routing to experts is part of the model weights, not (I think) a separate model.
Re:Ingesting PDFs and why Gemini 2.0 changes everything by pigscantfly on Thursday February 06, 2025 @01:01AM (#42959524)
The samples your input is batched with on the provider's backend vary between calls and sparse mixture of experts routing when implemented for efficient utilization induces competition among tokens with either encouraged or enforced balance of expert usage among tokens in the same fixed-size group. I think it's unknown or at least undisclosed exactly why sequence non-determinism at zero temperature occurs in these proprietary implementations, but I think this is a good theory.

[1] https://arxiv.org/abs/2308.00951 pg. 4 [2] https://152334h.github.io/blog/non-determinism-in-gpt-4/

Re:Ingesting PDFs and why Gemini 2.0 changes everything by kettleballroll on Thursday February 06, 2025 @01:25AM (#42959629)
I thought the temperature only affects randomness at the end of the network (when turning embeddings back I to words using the softmax). It cannot influence routing, which is inherently influenced by which examples get batched together (ie, it might depend on other users of the system)
Re:Ingesting PDFs and why Gemini 2.0 changes everything by menaerus on Thursday February 06, 2025 @02:40AM (#42960047)
You don't need RNG since the whole transformer is an extremely large floating-point arithmetic unit. A wild guess - how about the source of non-determinism is coming from the fact that, on the HW level, tensor execution order is not guaranteed and therefore (T0 * T1) * T2 can produce slightly different results than T0 * (T1 * T2) due to rounding errors?