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Re:What's Happening Inside the NIH and NSF by insane_dreamer on Wednesday February 05, 2025 @09:43AM (#42949118)
The other big elephant in the room is that the self-appointed wanna-be ruler, Musk, owns companies which have received very large amounts of both government (taxpayer) grants and contracts.

Back in 2015, the LA Times reported Musk's companies had received nearly $5 billion in grants. That's taxpayer money. Plus there's the SpaceX contracts--not saying those are unwarranted, certainly SpaceX deserves the contracts more than Boeing--but my point is that it's a huge conflict of interest.

A person receiving very large amounts of money from the government is now deciding which parts of the government should be cut in order to "save taxpayers money".

If this sounds like something that would only happen in a place like Russia, or the DRC, it's because it's something that would only happen in those places.

In other democratic countries you go to jail for this sort of thing (i.e., Nicholas Sarkozy in France--not saying the situation is exactly the same, but there's an actual judicial system in place that doesn't exonerate someone just because they're president, like our SCOTUS did).

Re:What's Happening Inside the NIH and NSF by Manabu-eo on Wednesday February 05, 2025 @11:20AM (#42950734)
Most of that $5 billion in the LA times article was not received by Musk's companies at the time, and I'm not sure if they ever received the full amount as it was contingent on reaching several milestones in the span of 20 years.

A big part of those $5 billion was not having to pay sales taxes on possible future Gigafactory production, for example, but that gigafactory never reached the initally planned size AFAIK.

Re:What's Happening Inside the NIH and NSF by rtkwe on Wednesday February 05, 2025 @11:33AM (#42950971)
The big question then is did the incentives then get clawed back. The pattern I'm familiar with says probably not; usually the company building the factory doesn't lose much of anything they were given when they fail to meet the milestones.
Re:What's Happening Inside the NIH and NSF by zie on Wednesday February 05, 2025 @11:54AM (#42951380)
First, it's usually structured that you meet X target, you get Y incentive. Second, what doesn't get clawed back is true of all companies though. So it's not unique to Tesla in any way.

Some of it is a loan, I know Tesla had a loan from the govt, they paid it back early if I remember correctly.

Plus all of that is in the past. What would be a huge problem is if the federal govt started throwing grant money at Tesla now, while Musk is running around playing in the govt.

All that said, I think it's a terrible state of affairs we find ourselves in, but I mean we voted Trump into power, what did we expect would happen? Rainbows and kittens?

Re:What's Happening Inside the NIH and NSF by kergonath on Wednesday February 05, 2025 @10:58AM (#42950376)
> Back in 2015, the LA Times reported Musk's companies had received nearly $5 billion in grants.

Luckily, that is unlikely to happen again. Now, the broligarchs are in power and the LA times has been captured and turned into a propaganda tool.

Re:What's Happening Inside the NIH and NSF by insane_dreamer on Wednesday February 05, 2025 @01:08PM (#42952646)
damn those pesky investigative reporters!
Re:What's Happening Inside the NIH and NSF by burnerboy on Wednesday February 05, 2025 @09:58AM (#42949331)
He also has massive business operations in China, a country which clearly wants a weakened US.

WSJ also reported in October about how Musk has been in regular contact with Putin.

Re:What's Happening Inside the NIH and NSF by chinathrow on Wednesday February 05, 2025 @04:04PM (#42955102)
At this point, it looks like Elon went fully rogue.
Re:What's Happening Inside the NIH and NSF by scarab92 on Wednesday February 05, 2025 @09:57AM (#42949312)
Trump has stated that the Musk is not being allowed to review functions in areas where he has a conflict.

That's probably why he's at USAID, and not the SEC.

Re:What's Happening Inside the NIH and NSF by zelon88 on Wednesday February 05, 2025 @12:13PM (#42951749)
He's at USAID because USAID ended apartheid in South Africa, which Elon Musk grew up in. [1] But not just "grew up in" by happenstance. His grandfather selected South Africa and Apartheid specifically for the privileges because they were Nazi sympathizers [2][3].

[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/05/world/africa/elon-musk-so... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joshua_N._Haldeman [3] https://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/the-world-accor...

Re:What's Happening Inside the NIH and NSF by yoyonamite on Wednesday February 05, 2025 @11:30AM (#42950915)
This sounds like a potential conflict of interest:

PROJECT ANNOUNCEMENT: Inspection of USAID's Oversight of Starlink Terminals Provided to the Government of Ukraine May 14, 2024

https://oig.usaid.gov/node/6814

Re:What's Happening Inside the NIH and NSF by scarab92 on Wednesday February 05, 2025 @11:33AM (#42950973)
Immaterial.

The contract value is less than $1 mill per year, and SpaceX initially provided it for free so clearly not designed as a money maker.

Re:What's Happening Inside the NIH and NSF by ceejayoz on Wednesday February 05, 2025 @12:08PM (#42951659)
> Immaterial.

Oh, well if you say so.

> SpaceX initially provided it for free so clearly not designed as a money maker.

That's literally the same approach drug dealers use. "First hit is free!"

Re:What's Happening Inside the NIH and NSF by captainclam on Wednesday February 05, 2025 @10:30AM (#42949875)
Oh never mind then.
Re:What's Happening Inside the NIH and NSF by Herring on Wednesday February 05, 2025 @11:50AM (#42951312)
Yeah sometimes you can't reason with people because they're dug in. In this case with Trump and Republicans, it's like Catholics being unable/unwilling to deal with pedophile priests, because group loyalty is so important to them. Tribalism is meant to override reason. Get them to turn on their brains first (eg by reflecting on values most important to them), and it becomes much easier.
Re:What's Happening Inside the NIH and NSF by nmz on Wednesday February 05, 2025 @11:28AM (#42950870)
Yeah, like he stated that he wasn't going to do anything that was in project 2025. So that was a lie.
Re:What's Happening Inside the NIH and NSF by dialup_sounds on Wednesday February 05, 2025 @11:33AM (#42950977)
Trump has stated that immigrants are eating dogs in Springfield, too. Maybe take what he says with a grain of salt.

More plausibly, USAID was a focus over the SEC because it had 20x the budget of the SEC and $16b of that goes to Ukraine.

Re:What's Happening Inside the NIH and NSF by insane_dreamer on Wednesday February 05, 2025 @10:17AM (#42949637)
> Trump stated

what mental gymnastics are you having to do to believe Trump, who is a proven pathological liar -- I mean, come on, that's not even a question of debate

I believe 0% of what Trump says.

But even if that were true, it doesn't resolve the conflict of interest story. Gov money being cut from _fill in blank of gov agency_ means that there's more money available for what's important to Musk (corp tax cuts, for example; gov spending that benefits his company, his business interests in China, etc.)

Re:What's Happening Inside the NIH and NSF by scarab92 on Wednesday February 05, 2025 @10:26AM (#42949795)
> Gov money being cut from _fill in blank of gov agency_ means that there's more money available for what's important to Musk

Not really. Government spending doesn't need to be balanced like a household budget. Whether or not policies are enacted which financially benefit Musk is not dependenant on whether he can find savings or not.

Right now all we have is speculation on your behalf that Musk is acting unethically by ignoring a conflict of interest, versus a public statement from the president that he's not being permitted to do so.

Re:What's Happening Inside the NIH and NSF by arbitrary_name on Wednesday February 05, 2025 @11:08AM (#42950523)
You mean the public statement from a president with a known history of lying to the public and committing felonies?

I'm inclined to believe the speculation.

Re:What's Happening Inside the NIH and NSF by dingnuts on Wednesday February 05, 2025 @11:07AM (#42950509)
sorry, when did the Senate confirm Musk's appointment?
Re:What's Happening Inside the NIH and NSF by SmirkingRevenge on Wednesday February 05, 2025 @11:07AM (#42950507)
They are both operating completely outside the bounds of the law here and there's no ethical justification for that at all.

You can set your defaults to 'trust Trump/Elon' if you really want to I guess, but that's a highly unreasonable default (to put it mildly). Both have a long and clear public history as bad actors.

At it's most benign, this is dangerous clownishness mostly for show, but even that is far too charitable.

Re:What's Happening Inside the NIH and NSF by insane_dreamer on Wednesday February 05, 2025 @01:26PM (#42952923)
You're forgetting that it's necessary to cut gov spending in order to finance a corporate tax cut.

Anyway, you're clearly in the "I trust Trump" camp, so whatever. It's a small shame that you'll be disappointed in the end. But the bigger shame is all the lives that will be destroyed because of his self-serving policies.

I actually don't have much of an issue with the GOP as a party (other than their groveling to Trump once they realized their only political choice was to serve him or die). But Trump is a disgrace and could not even get a job as the principal of my child's primary school--that's how low his supporters set the bar for their president.

Re:What's Happening Inside the NIH and NSF by ceejayoz on Wednesday February 05, 2025 @10:03AM (#42949396)
> Trump has stated...

... virtually every position, on both sides of every issue.

Come the fuck on.

Re:What's Happening Inside the NIH and NSF by scarab92 on Wednesday February 05, 2025 @10:09AM (#42949497)
On the issue of whether Musk is allowed to review functions that he has a conflict with, he has only stated that Musk is not allowed to do so.
Re:What's Happening Inside the NIH and NSF by ceejayoz on Wednesday February 05, 2025 @10:17AM (#42949642)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_or_misleading_statements...

This is a man who sharpies extra lines onto weather maps so he doesn't have to say "whoops, made a mistake in my tweet". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurricane_Dorian%E2%80%93Alaba...

Re:What's Happening Inside the NIH and NSF by scarab92 on Wednesday February 05, 2025 @10:27AM (#42949833)
Okay, but the evidence on the other side, the evidence that Musk is enriching himself... is ... what exactly? speculation?
Re:What's Happening Inside the NIH and NSF by svachalek on Wednesday February 05, 2025 @10:44AM (#42950135)
The standard is to remove all possibility and/or appearance of conflict of interest. "Some guy gave me control of all the money and said I shouldn't take any for myself" is so far below this standard it's comical.
Re:What's Happening Inside the NIH and NSF by scarab92 on Wednesday February 05, 2025 @10:51AM (#42950268)
Firstly, someone ultimately has to have control of agency spendng, so that cannot be deemed a conflict of interest by itself.

Secondly, I don't believe Musk has any direct authority to make any changes within these agencies whatsoever. DOGE is only permitted to review agency operations and make recommendations, not to execute them.

The changes that are being attributed to Musk, are perhaps being done at his recommendation, but there is an agency director signing off on all of this.

Re:What's Happening Inside the NIH and NSF by ceejayoz on Wednesday February 05, 2025 @10:31AM (#42949895)
To be clear, "is there evidence the world's richest person has a profit motivation behind his sudden interest in unpaid public service" is your question?
Re:What's Happening Inside the NIH and NSF by scarab92 on Wednesday February 05, 2025 @10:43AM (#42950116)
Yes, though I wouldn't call his interest in public policy sudden.

If we're honest this is all just unfounded speculation.

Financially, he's likely going to benefit from a deregulatory agenda, but is it enough to offset his investments to get Trump elected (buying Twitter, America PAC)? Who knows

Is his work at USAID in any way related to his financial outcomes? Who knows

Would he make just as much sitting on the couch while the republicans do their thing? Probably

Does he even care about making more money, given he's got more than he can possibly spend already? Who knows.

If I were to guess, he's at a point in his life where money isn't his main motivator, and instead he's seeking to make an impact.

Re:What's Happening Inside the NIH and NSF by danorama on Wednesday February 05, 2025 @10:55AM (#42950321)
“he's at a point in his life where money isn't his main motivator”

It seems pretty clear by now that this never happens with billionaires.

Re:What's Happening Inside the NIH and NSF by scarab92 on Wednesday February 05, 2025 @11:02AM (#42950438)
Jeff Bezos is chilling on yachts and tinkering with rockets.

Bill Gates is giving his money away to charity as quickly as he can do while maintaining effectiveness.

Sergey Brin is goofing around with airships.

Plenty of examples of billionaries living life rather than focusing on making more money.

Re:What's Happening Inside the NIH and NSF by ceejayoz on Wednesday February 05, 2025 @12:55PM (#42952438)
> Jeff Bezos is ... tinkering with rockets.

With the goal of making money.

> Bill Gates is giving his money away to charity as quickly as he can do while maintaining effectiveness.

Perhaps the best example here, but he's still working quite a bit to make money. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BENlabs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TerraPower https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cascade_Investment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gates_Ventures https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breakthrough_Energy

> Sergey Brin is goofing around with airships.

With the goal of making money.

Re:What's Happening Inside the NIH and NSF by kergonath on Wednesday February 05, 2025 @11:05AM (#42950489)
Musk owes quite a lot of his virtual fortune to government subsidies. That alone should prevent him from being anywhere near the government. The appearance of impropriety is corrosive because it undermines public trust in the government. You don’t need improper actions to be in a conflict of interest.

We also know that he has no moral compass and no qualm whatsoever using any lever he can to make money. The moment to worry about this is before he leaves with the till. Because everyone knows he will, and by then it will be too late.

Re:What's Happening Inside the NIH and NSF by scarab92 on Wednesday February 05, 2025 @11:16AM (#42950659)
> We also know that he has no moral compass and no qualm whatsoever using any lever he can to make money.

We don't know that.

Musk has several times lobbied against EV subsidies which would directly benefit Tesla, because he viewed the subsidies as excessive.

Re:What's Happening Inside the NIH and NSF by ceejayoz on Wednesday February 05, 2025 @12:59PM (#42952497)
> Musk has several times lobbied against EV subsidies which would directly benefit Tesla, because he viewed the subsidies as excessive.

Of course he wants to kneecap his emerging competitors in the space.

Same technique OpenAI is using with advocating for AI regulation.

Re:What's Happening Inside the NIH and NSF by rbanffy on Wednesday February 05, 2025 @10:58AM (#42950375)
And we believe that because Trump never lies.
Re:What's Happening Inside the NIH and NSF by dingnuts on Wednesday February 05, 2025 @11:08AM (#42950526)
when Congress approved DOGE what did they say? want to link to the LEGISLATION that authorizes Trump and Musk to do this?
Re:What's Happening Inside the NIH and NSF by scarab92 on Wednesday February 05, 2025 @11:19AM (#42950724)
It was created by executive order, not congress.

You can find the executive order on the whitehouse website.

Technically it's a renaming of the USDS

Re:What's Happening Inside the NIH and NSF by ceejayoz on Wednesday February 05, 2025 @04:15PM (#42955261)
Good news: you’re right!

Bad news: this limitation will be enforced by… Musk himself.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2025-02-05/white-hou...

> The White House said Elon Musk, the billionaire leading President Donald Trump’s government cost-cutting efforts, will determine if there are conflicts of interest between his work reviewing federal spending and his overlapping empire of six companies.

Re:What's Happening Inside the NIH and NSF by esalman on Wednesday February 05, 2025 @02:37PM (#42953921)
The big elephant is called conflict of interest.