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Re:DoppelBot: Replace Your CEO with an LLM by Hasu on Tuesday February 04, 2025 @12:40PM (#42935832)
All of your points are premised on the idea that the only purpose of a corporation is to make as much money for its shareholders as possible. But that isn't true, especially in the case of a cooperative.

Most companies make decisions based on a list of priorities: they care about their shareholders/investors first, upper management second (upper management is usually bribed by the investors with equity, aligning their interests with the shareholders, so this is maybe a distinction without a difference), rank-and-file employees third, customers fourth, and anyone not involved with the company last.

The point of a cooperative is to flip this incentive structure on its head: the customers or workers are owners, so they get prioritized. The purpose of the company isn't to dominate the markets and become the biggest company ever, it's to make a better life for the people working for and patronizing the company, instead of just the people who own it.

> As an employee, I would prefer to work at a company where my equity does not have these restrictions placed on it.

Well obviously, if you're talking about equity in a company as something you can own and profit from without ongoing labor, you are definitionally a capitalist and you will be opposed to cooperatives.

> I would be very uneasy about investing anyone's retirement savings into such an organization.

The primary purpose of a cooperative is not to make profits for passive investors. This is like judging a fish on its ability to climb a tree.

Re:DoppelBot: Replace Your CEO with an LLM by woah on Tuesday February 04, 2025 @12:44PM (#42935890)
> The purpose of the company isn't to dominate the markets and become the biggest company ever, it's to make a better life for the people working for and patronizing the company, instead of just the people who own it.

That's perfectly fine, and also the reason why cooperatives are a pretty niche thing: they don't prioritize growth.

Re:DoppelBot: Replace Your CEO with an LLM by Miraste on Tuesday February 04, 2025 @03:20PM (#42938043)
This is only half the answer. Cooperatives are niche in the US because they don't prioritize growth, and they exist in a legal and financial framework that does. If conventional corporations didn't receive massive amounts of investor cash and preferential government treatment to stay unprofitable for years or decades while scaling, one imagines coops would be more competitive.
Re:DoppelBot: Replace Your CEO with an LLM by satvikpendem on Tuesday February 04, 2025 @03:33PM (#42938175)
They are investors for a reason, they expect a return. If a coop does not produce good returns, especially as compared to standard corporations, why would one expect investors to invest?
Re:DoppelBot: Replace Your CEO with an LLM by Miraste on Tuesday February 04, 2025 @03:51PM (#42938434)
Exactly. Investors will always constitute a force against cooperatives; countries with successful coops (Spain, Italy, the Nordics, even Canada) provide other funding mechanisms to prevent private investment from dictating the entire market. The United States chooses not to do this. It is a choice, not the natural result of having a finance system.
Re:DoppelBot: Replace Your CEO with an LLM by satvikpendem on Tuesday February 04, 2025 @04:59PM (#42939513)
The US government has a lot of funding mechanisms, the economy does not rely solely on private investment. It is just that the scale of venture investment dwarfs a lot of even governmental investment in most other countries, money made from previous ventures so of course they'd deploy that capital.
Re:DoppelBot: Replace Your CEO with an LLM by chii on Tuesday February 04, 2025 @11:12PM (#42943680)
> provide other funding mechanisms to prevent private investment from dictating the entire market.

if this funding comes from the gov't, then you're just forcing taxpayers to subsidize a less profitable funding mechanism. It's merely a wealth transfer (from taxpayers to these coop owners).

Re:DoppelBot: Replace Your CEO with an LLM by kilna on Wednesday February 05, 2025 @07:20PM (#42957347)
Since 1980 the top 1%’s share of national income nearly doubled, while the bottom 50%’s share fell from 20% to 13%. Real wages for most workers stagnated despite productivity rising 62% (1979-2019), ALL of that went to investors.

People who claim funding co-ops is a "wealth transfer" ignore existing policies which already funnel taxpayer money upward. Redirecting a fraction of subsidies like bailouts and fossil fuel breaks and the endless war machine... instead to worker owned models that reinvest profits locally and tie wealth to labor... that isn’t a new transfer but a correction. Co-ops reduce reliance on exploitative private equity (e.g., hedge funds buying 40% of U.S. rental homes) and ensure economic gains stay with the people generating value.

I have the controversial opinion that people who work should get money, not the people who don't work.

Re:DoppelBot: Replace Your CEO with an LLM by chii on Wednesday February 05, 2025 @11:12PM (#42958995)
> people who work should get money

and they do.

> not the people who don't work

and they don't. With the exception of some basic welfare payments, which i am not opposed to, what you mentioned is what currently happens.

But you're unilaterally classifying capital as not being work would be wrong. Capital is solidified work from previous/earlier times, but unconsumed and saved.

Re:DoppelBot: Replace Your CEO with an LLM by agentultra on Thursday February 06, 2025 @09:52AM (#42962905)
I think they're referring to the class of people who profit from capital rather than their labour. That class profits from the labour of others. They don't have to exploit their bodies, experience, and skills (labour) to realize profits. They're the ones who, "don't work."

They're not talking about people who "don't work," and collect welfare.

Re:DoppelBot: Replace Your CEO with an LLM by skinnymuch on Monday February 10, 2025 @01:59AM (#42997620)
Capitalists don’t work. That’s what they meant.
Re:DoppelBot: Replace Your CEO with an LLM by Hasu on Tuesday February 04, 2025 @12:53PM (#42936028)
They don't prioritize growth for the same reason healthy cells don't prioritize growth.

You need to be cancer or a public corporation to think growth is the most important thing.

Re:DoppelBot: Replace Your CEO with an LLM by satvikpendem on Tuesday February 04, 2025 @03:42PM (#42938288)
This oft-repeated analogy to biological systems doesn't make much sense, human individuals biologically stay homeostatic with nature, but human groups have grown exponentially, building civilization as you know it. If we didn't prioritize growth, we'd still be hunter gatherers.
Re:DoppelBot: Replace Your CEO with an LLM by woah on Tuesday February 04, 2025 @12:57PM (#42936100)
There isn't any value judgement here. There are not more cooperatives because they don't prioritize growth. Who are you angry at?