News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Mastercard DNS Error Went Unnoticed for Years by TZubiri on Wednesday January 22, 2025 @12:33PM (#42795308)
Can security researchers send an invoice for a reasonable amount conmesurate with the value of the service provided and then sue for quantum meruit if it is not paid?
Re:Mastercard DNS Error Went Unnoticed for Years by rafram on Wednesday January 22, 2025 @12:42PM (#42795406)
Can those people who wash your windshield at red lights actually make you pay?

If your neighbor leaves their door unlocked while they’re at work, can you go change the locks (for their safety!) and bill them for your time?

No, of course not. Why would you be able to bill for a service that you weren’t asked to provide?

Re:Mastercard DNS Error Went Unnoticed for Years by cperciva on Wednesday January 22, 2025 @01:18PM (#42795850)
Why would you be able to bill for a service that you weren’t asked to provide?

This can happen; if you're found unconscious and taken to the hospital, you can be billed for medical care which you didn't ask for, based on the doctrine of presumed consent.

One could imagine a parallel -- a critical emergency where it's impossible to communicate but it's reasonable to presume that they would want to have the issue fixed if they were aware. I don't think it necessarily applies here, but it's at least possible that another case could meet that bar.

Re:Mastercard DNS Error Went Unnoticed for Years by TZubiri on Wednesday January 22, 2025 @08:58PM (#42799794)
Additionally in this case the company has a bug bounty policy / program, so it isn't quite unsolicited.
Re:Mastercard DNS Error Went Unnoticed for Years by bmicraft on Wednesday January 22, 2025 @12:49PM (#42795485)
Well, in a case such as this: because they're putting other people's data/money at risk and should have payed somebody to discover flaws like this in the first place. It's not the law but maybe it should be.
Re:Mastercard DNS Error Went Unnoticed for Years by giancarlostoro on Wednesday January 22, 2025 @12:55PM (#42795568)
Legal extortion you way?
Re:Mastercard DNS Error Went Unnoticed for Years by the8472 on Wednesday January 22, 2025 @01:08PM (#42795749)
Well, the users of the system should be able to recoup some of their costs for services (security) not rendered and then pay the researcher for that. In a more well-coordinated society none of this would happen because the company would have avoided the predictable outcome by hiring a security person in the first place.
Re:Mastercard DNS Error Went Unnoticed for Years by rafram on Wednesday January 22, 2025 @12:55PM (#42795560)
And if you can’t see out of your dirty windshield, you could cause an accident. If your neighbor’s door is unlocked all day, someone could break in and steal their TV.

I mean, why should I even need to apply for any job? McDonald’s always needs workers; do you think they’ll mind if I walk into the kitchen, start flipping burgers, and then name my hourly rate at the end of the day?

Re:Mastercard DNS Error Went Unnoticed for Years by bmicraft on Thursday January 23, 2025 @04:27AM (#42802319)
We were talking about "reasonable", which your reply seems to miss completely. Reasonable can mean a lot of things, including a predefined rate or a fixed way to calculate compensation owed.
Re:Mastercard DNS Error Went Unnoticed for Years by randysalami on Wednesday January 22, 2025 @01:14PM (#42795818)
They can smash your window
Re:Mastercard DNS Error Went Unnoticed for Years by itishappy on Wednesday January 22, 2025 @01:29PM (#42795955)
Not legally.
Re:Mastercard DNS Error Went Unnoticed for Years by TZubiri on Wednesday January 22, 2025 @09:17PM (#42799904)
Details matter, and the examples you came up with are ridiculously off base.

In this case there was a bug bounty program, so it is not as unsolicited as someone washing your windshield at a stoplight.

Secondly this is not a personal residence, thirdly the property was never broken into by the researcher (nor locks changed), finally there's is fiduciary duty from the company to their clients/users.

Since you are keen on hypothetical scenarios, let me present to you a more similar scenario. A school is situated near an old tree in a nearby lot that has a risk of falling, either on the school or on the public sidewalk, the researcher notices it, rents the nearby lot and safely chops down the tree. Then sends a bill to the school for chopping down the tree.

It is important to note that I didn't ask the question in order to get the opinion of strangers on what should happen based on personal ethics, rather I asked the question in case someone knowledgeable about the law knew the actual answer as to what the courts rule.

Re:Mastercard DNS Error Went Unnoticed for Years by pizzafeelsright on Wednesday January 22, 2025 @12:40PM (#42795380)
I spent a minute reading this. My time is worth $300/hr and I bill in tenths of an hour.

Where do I send the invoice?

Re:Mastercard DNS Error Went Unnoticed for Years by TZubiri on Wednesday January 22, 2025 @09:35PM (#42800014)
"For example, to state a claim for unjust enrichment in New York, a plaintiff must allege that (1) defendant was enriched; (2) the enrichment was at plaintiff's expense; and (3) the circumstances were such that equity and good conscience require defendants to make restitution.[1]"

Of course that (3) is the contentious point typically, but you haven't even gotten (1) right. How does you reading my comment provide value to me?

It's also funny that, excluding the element of a relationship previously existing, This is the way most business on an hourly basis is made.

Suppose you have a lawyer, you agree on 300$/hr, then you ask them to draft a contract and pay them 600$/hr. If someday you are imprisoned and your lawyer is contacted by law enforcement, and they have to bail you out of jail. They would typically send you an invoice even if you didn't solicit that specific service.

While it's not insignificant that you had a previous hourly arrangement for a different type of work, it's certainly not a sufficient reason to claim that you owe them for their time and bond monies.

Re:Mastercard DNS Error Went Unnoticed for Years by ziddoap on Wednesday January 22, 2025 @12:38PM (#42795352)
The only people that I know do this are "Beg Bounty" "Security Researchers" that are, essentially, attempting to extort people.

Even if it would be legally possible (I don't think you can force your 'services' on an unwilling entity and then force them to pay), it would be absolutely awful optics.

Re:Mastercard DNS Error Went Unnoticed for Years by thatguy0900 on Wednesday January 22, 2025 @12:42PM (#42795400)
The closest I can think is the old scam where a business would mail you a package then demand payment for the item mailed to you. That was solved by just making anything shipped to you yours with no legal obligation to send it back
Re:Mastercard DNS Error Went Unnoticed for Years by kmoser on Wednesday January 22, 2025 @04:53PM (#42797918)
Unfortunately it doesn't work for instances of, say, a bank accidentally depositing extra money in your account, or their ATMs accidentally dispensing too much cash.
Re:Mastercard DNS Error Went Unnoticed for Years by themaninthedark on Thursday January 23, 2025 @12:46PM (#42806126)
Why would it? The situations are entirely different; in the mail package situation, the outside company is attempting to get you to pay for something that you did not request. In the Bank/ATM, the company made a mistake.

For the bank situation to work, they would have to add an unrequested service to your account and then attempt to charge you for it. i.e. Bank adds overdraft protection to you checking account and then bills you for it.

Say you have an internet plan with a 5GB download limit and after 5GB the connection would no longer send data, one month it lets you download 7GB and then they send you a bill for going over. You probably would not have to pay the bill since they changed their behavior and provided extra without prior notification.

Re:Mastercard DNS Error Went Unnoticed for Years by TZubiri on Wednesday January 22, 2025 @09:46PM (#42800093)
Re:Optics, I agree, but I think they would be counterweighted by the dimension of the issue fixed.

To put a hypothetical example, if I fix a life threatening electrical or structural issue in a children's hospital unsolicited, whatever hit to my reputation I take by charging for unsolicited work, is dwarved and possible restored and reversed by the gravity of the issue fixed and the consquences avoided.

Of course this is contingent on whether the value was actually provided and whether it is provable.

Re:Mastercard DNS Error Went Unnoticed for Years by tptacek on Wednesday January 22, 2025 @12:55PM (#42795555)
Of course not.
Re:Mastercard DNS Error Went Unnoticed for Years by znpy on Wednesday January 22, 2025 @01:06PM (#42795725)
most door locks can be easily picked.

can i go from house to house, pick locks and then demand payment?

(spoiler: no)

Re:Mastercard DNS Error Went Unnoticed for Years by TZubiri on Friday January 24, 2025 @08:54AM (#42813017)
I feel you are just applying a classic example from ethical hacking 101 that doesn't apply at all.

The common example is that a house can have a door without lock, but it is still a crime to enter. Similarly, entering into a vulnerable system or a system without password even is not legal (although of course the existence of a password or lock mechanism makes undeniable the fact that the place is not for public entry)

In this case there is no entering into any system. There is no lock picked, no server accessed.

Re:Mastercard DNS Error Went Unnoticed for Years by znpy on Friday January 31, 2025 @05:04AM (#42886273)
irrelevant.

can i just decide on my own to do some work, and then *demand* payment for such work?

the answer is still no.

Re:Mastercard DNS Error Went Unnoticed for Years by snakeyjake on Wednesday January 22, 2025 @01:04PM (#42795680)
Yes, they can. Anyone can sue anyone else for any reason.

It will be a colossal waste of everyone's time and money, though, because they will never prevail.

Re:Mastercard DNS Error Went Unnoticed for Years by dizhn on Wednesday January 22, 2025 @01:06PM (#42795723)
That sounds like a fine, not an invoice. If you can compel them to pay, sure. ;)
Re:Mastercard DNS Error Went Unnoticed for Years by TZubiri on Friday January 24, 2025 @08:50AM (#42812987)
No.

A fine is punitive, an invoice is compensatory.

Re:Mastercard DNS Error Went Unnoticed for Years by yapyap on Wednesday January 22, 2025 @12:56PM (#42795574)
They can not.