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Re:Poland fumes over US block on AI chips by Temporary_31337 on Tuesday January 21, 2025 @05:55AM (#42778693)
I don’t think that was thought through at all, just some stupid political posturing. First of all lots of chips are in data centres already. Google has one in Poland. There’s freedom of movement and business across EU so any Polish citizen can set up company in Germany buy the chips and legally drive them over the border - there’s no border checks in Schengen area- bit like US interstate borders.
Re:Poland fumes over US block on AI chips by jdietrich on Tuesday January 21, 2025 @06:30AM (#42778975)
>any Polish citizen can set up company in Germany buy the chips and legally drive them over the border

They wouldn't be breaking EU law in doing so, but whoever supplied this Polish citizen would be breaching the terms of their US export license or license exception. Germany has been granted a license exception specifically because the BIS trusts them to prevent this from happening.

A company in Poland is not prevented from importing advanced GPUs, but they need to apply for either a license or a Validated End-User Authorization. Likewise, Poland could apply to be recognised as an eligible destination country on the same terms as Germany if they can provide written assurances to the US government that they have taken adequate steps to prevent diversion.

I'm not a fan of these rules, but I think they're being misrepresented.

https://public-inspection.federalregister.gov/2025-00636.pdf

Re:Poland fumes over US block on AI chips by tpm on Tuesday January 21, 2025 @06:44AM (#42779077)
> whoever supplied this Polish citizen would be breaching the terms of their US export license or license exception

And whoever (if that's an entity trading in the EU) refuses to supply a Polish citizen on the basis of his nationality is most probably breaking the rules of the Common Market. So if nobody wants to break any laws, this ultimately ends with EU buying GPUs from China.

Re:Poland fumes over US block on AI chips by qwytw on Tuesday January 21, 2025 @07:29AM (#42779380)
Are all companies in the EU legally required to do business with any company in any EU country whether they want to or not? Seems hard to believe...
Re:Poland fumes over US block on AI chips by benterix on Tuesday January 21, 2025 @07:59AM (#42779619)
They are not allowed to discriminate on the basis of nationality.
Re:Poland fumes over US block on AI chips by qwytw on Tuesday January 21, 2025 @08:40AM (#42779970)
Why are you bringing nationality into this? Don't see how is this relevant.

The company in Poland might be owned and run by a German national and a Pole might be the owner of the German company. The AI chip export rules would apply exactly the same.

Re:Poland fumes over US block on AI chips by flir on Tuesday January 21, 2025 @07:47AM (#42779501)
I think grandparent is arguing that citizenship is a protected characteristic. I think they're on iffy ground there, personally.
Re:Poland fumes over US block on AI chips by tpm on Tuesday January 21, 2025 @07:50AM (#42779536)
It's not a "protected characteristic", protection against discrimination based on nationality or residence is the basis of the Common Market and well tested in the EU courts. That's of course when selling to the consumer, might be a bit different when selling to companies.
Re:Poland fumes over US block on AI chips by flir on Tuesday January 21, 2025 @07:53AM (#42779559)
Thanks for the correction. I'll have to take your word on that.
Re:Poland fumes over US block on AI chips by tpm on Tuesday January 21, 2025 @07:57AM (#42779605)
Re:Poland fumes over US block on AI chips by tpm on Tuesday January 21, 2025 @07:47AM (#42779504)
That's not what I have written, is it. If a Polish citizen wants to buy a GPU in Germany and is refused on the basis on his nationality or residence, then that's against the law.
Re:Poland fumes over US block on AI chips by qwytw on Tuesday January 21, 2025 @08:47AM (#42780025)
Perhaps. But this is a hypothetical situation you came up with that does not seem to be relevant.

Nobody is or is planning to restrict Polish consumers from buying GPUs from Germany.

The export regulations we're talking about:

> organizations in countries that are not close allies of the US can purchase up to 50,000 advanced GPUs per country over the next two years. Organizations can also apply for a trusted National Verified End User status that would allow them to purchase up to 320,000 advanced GPUs over the next two years.

> The vast majority of countries fall into the second tier. This group faces caps on the levels of computing power that can go to any one state: roughly around 50,000 advanced AI chips through 2027, although that can double if the state reaches an agreement with the United States. Individual companies headquartered in tier two countries—for example, companies such as Emirati tech giant G42—can access significantly higher limits if they apply for their own national validated end user status. That process involves making verifiable security commitments, both physical and cyber, and assurances that they will not use those chips in ways that violate human rights (for example, by deploying them for large-scale surveillance purposes). If a company obtains this status, its chip imports won’t count toward the country’s overall maximum cap—a move designed to create incentives for foreign firms to adopt U.S. AI standards.

Re:Poland fumes over US block on AI chips by tpm on Tuesday January 21, 2025 @10:56AM (#42781531)
> But this is a hypothetical situation

Let's just say hypothetical situations tend to happen quite often here in CEE. So in the beginning of the 90s, after the fall of communism, the borders were open but old US restrictions on buying computers were still in place for a few years. What did companies do? I think you can guess, a few enterprising guys made good money by privately buying computers in the West and selling them to companies back home. It's a long time ago, but not that long.

So I don't know, what happens when a country fills up its quota, but then the quota does not apply to small orders, so you just order in smaller batches or what.. anyway at some point Nvidia says 'No GPUs for you Poland' but that's not really true for e.g. Google that's in Poland too, and also it's not true for consumers buying GPUs. It just doesn't seem to be enforceable to me.

Re:Poland fumes over US block on AI chips by qwytw on Tuesday January 21, 2025 @02:32PM (#42784302)
This is not for consumer GPUs, though. I don't think you can that easily order large numbers of H100s as a random company. And presumably at some point Nvidia will stop doing business with you (at the very least) if you keep reselling them to other countries while violating export restrictions.
Re:Poland fumes over US block on AI chips by melchizedek6809 on Tuesday January 21, 2025 @06:09AM (#42778806)
That particular border actually does get controlled these days, got held up at the German-Polish border just a week or so ago:

https://www.bmi.bund.de/SharedDocs/pressemitteilungen/EN/202...

But of course your overall point stands

Re:Poland fumes over US block on AI chips by patrickmcnamara on Tuesday January 21, 2025 @06:35AM (#42779009)
They're just checking for illegal immigration though, right? Not like they'll care about GPUs going across the border.
Re:Poland fumes over US block on AI chips by melchizedek6809 on Wednesday January 22, 2025 @05:13AM (#42791162)
Seemed that way, in my case at least they only really checked the passports. Doubt they'd notice or care if one brings a trunkload full of GPUs across the border.
Re:Poland fumes over US block on AI chips by diggan on Tuesday January 21, 2025 @06:28AM (#42778965)
> there’s no border checks in Schengen area

This is no longer true, they've done a "Temporary Reintroduction of Border Control", and bunch of countries have implemented more control as of late. https://home-affairs.ec.europa.eu/policies/schengen-borders-...

Re:Poland fumes over US block on AI chips by tpm on Tuesday January 21, 2025 @06:53AM (#42779134)
I'm passing quite often one of these borders supposedly with controls and the cars are waved through by the officers. Even better, if you are passing the border on foot or on a bike, there are no officers to be seen at all. So the controls are nominally reintroduced to score some political points, most probably.
Re:Poland fumes over US block on AI chips by diggan on Tuesday January 21, 2025 @06:59AM (#42779187)
Yeah, this been my experience as well (in South/West Schengen, by car). I've seen spot checks more regularly though, compared to some years ago when there was literally nothing.
Re:Poland fumes over US block on AI chips by jajko on Tuesday January 21, 2025 @06:42AM (#42779057)
Switzerland is in Schengen and they kept border checks all the time, also strict limits on goods transferred etc.
Re:Poland fumes over US block on AI chips by diggan on Tuesday January 21, 2025 @06:52AM (#42779127)
> Switzerland is in Schengen and they kept border checks all the time

Not sure "all the time" is accurate. Two years ago I drove a car through Switzerland, entering from the South border and leaving at the North border (and ~3 weeks later, the opposite way), there was no border checks at all. The only control we encountered when traveling from Spain to Sweden (and vice-versa) by car was the quick checks at the German<>Denmark ferry border.

Re:Poland fumes over US block on AI chips by flakeoil on Tuesday January 21, 2025 @07:38AM (#42779435)
It's not "all the time", but any time they want. You have to declare goods all the time though (if above limit) as there are limits in place for meat, alcohol etc.
Re:Poland fumes over US block on AI chips by diggan on Tuesday January 21, 2025 @07:46AM (#42779495)
> You have to declare goods all the time though (if above limit) as there are limits in place for meat, alcohol etc.

Yes, of course, but this is true anywhere, not just for the places under the "Temporary Reintroduction of Border Control".

Re:Poland fumes over US block on AI chips by jajko on Tuesday January 21, 2025 @09:13AM (#42780253)
I live here 15 years and cross borders to France and Austria quite often. Of course not 100% of the checkpoints are manned 100% of the time, I know quite a few small ones around Geneva for example where you could smuggle truckload of heroin 24/7 for a decade without any worry of ever seeing border police. Also checks are random and not focused on specific things, sometimes romanian van chock full of stuff is stopped and sometimes its swiss family car.

But all major are and were in the past, all frontaliers coming daily for the jobs in all border cantons can tell you about wonders of morning checks corresponding massive traffic jams forming in front of the border crossings, every single day. 1/3 of my office colleagues experience this every day.

Major eastern border crossings are 100% manned though, morning day night doesn't matter.

Re:Poland fumes over US block on AI chips by tommiegannert on Tuesday January 21, 2025 @07:33AM (#42779405)
Given they're not part of the EU, and you have to pay import duties and VAT, that makes more sense than Poland/Germany.
Re:Poland fumes over US block on AI chips by mytailorisrich on Tuesday January 21, 2025 @07:51AM (#42779543)
Schengen applies to people. However, Switzerland is not in the EU and, crucially, not in the EU Customs Union so there are import limitations.

They do not check extra hard, though... It's been a number of years but they used to wave cars through or even have border/customs checkpoints closed depending on their 'mood'...

Re:Poland fumes over US block on AI chips by izacus on Tuesday January 21, 2025 @07:13AM (#42779271)
Of course actually seeing those border checks is another thing entirely ;)
Re:Poland fumes over US block on AI chips by flir on Tuesday January 21, 2025 @07:50AM (#42779539)
Do you even need to drive them over the border? Plug them in in Germany, go use them from a laptop in Poland.

(I don't get export controls on cloud hardware. Unless it's protectionism designed to lock countries with cheap energy prices out of the market, of course. I could see that rationale).

Re:Poland fumes over US block on AI chips by benterix on Tuesday January 21, 2025 @08:01AM (#42779632)
That was actually my first though. Why even bother moving them physically?
Re:Poland fumes over US block on AI chips by sharpshadow on Wednesday January 22, 2025 @01:25AM (#42789691)
Maybe because Germany has with the highest energy prices in the world and the rent is high too. Other way around would be better.
Re:Poland fumes over US block on AI chips by benterix on Wednesday January 22, 2025 @03:40AM (#42790509)
In spite of high energy prices, Hetzner manages to be one of the most competitive bare metal/cloud/colo provider in the world.

Although in the case of colocation, they do offer space in Finland for ca 1/3 less per kWh.

Re:Poland fumes over US block on AI chips by Larrikin on Tuesday January 21, 2025 @08:46AM (#42780008)
It's highly illegal in the US to setup a business in NY (say a bodega), drive to a state with cheap cigarettes like VA, and transport those cigarettes over state lines for sale in NY.