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Re:Why are tech people suddenly so into homeschooling? by demosthanos on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @11:52AM (#42699902)
There's also rising awareness among parents of neurodiversity while many schools are still stagnant and failing to correct.

I have ADHD. My wife doesn't, but most of her siblings do. Our kids do. Our kids love reading and love learning new things, and I know from my own experience that the fastest way to kill that love would be to send them to a public school that doesn't know how to work with ADHD brains.

There's a saying that if you gave a scientist the job of designing a system to completely derail an ADHD brain, they'd come back with the typical public school classroom. This matches my experience, and I want better for my kids.

Re:Why are tech people suddenly so into homeschooling? by ruthmarx on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @01:08PM (#42701265)
ADD/ADHD was over-diagnosed for a long time. Why are you so sure all the people you mention have it vs other explanations? What is it you think makes ADHD brains special?
Re:Why are tech people suddenly so into homeschooling? by from-nibly on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @01:10PM (#42701294)
Why are you so confident that they shouldn't be confident?
Re:Why are tech people suddenly so into homeschooling? by ruthmarx on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @01:33PM (#42701677)
Were you the downvote I got instantly after commenting, lol? I'm simply curious and that should be sufficient, I'm not really sure what it has to do with you though.
Re:Why are tech people suddenly so into homeschooling? by d4mi3n on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @09:00PM (#42706466)
As someone with this condition, I think it may be helpful to note that while your comment may not be intended to be disparaging, it can be interpreted in such a way. A lot of neurodivergent folks or people experiencing mental health issues are commonly told their problems are imaginary, or aren’t a big deal. [0] It’s a pretty big sore spot.

It’s also debatable how over diagnosed ADHD is. The diagnosis criteria has certainly changed, but current literature estimates about 6% adults are believed to some degree of ADHD [1]—though many are high functioning and find ways to cope with varying degrees of success and difficulty.

0. https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371%2Fjourn...

1. https://chadd.org/about-adhd/general-prevalence-adults/

Re:Why are tech people suddenly so into homeschooling? by ruthmarx on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @09:12PM (#42706528)
> As someone with this condition, I think it may be helpful to note that while your comment may not be intended to be disparaging, it can be interpreted in such a way. A lot of neurodivergent folks or people experiencing mental health issues are commonly told their problems are imaginary, or aren’t a big deal. [0] It’s a pretty big sore spot.

Not my intention, but I was diagnosed as a kid when over-diagnosing did seem to be a trend, and I've become skeptical in these times of self IDing.

When I mentioned over-diagnosing it was more referring to the 90s, but I think a lot of adults who were diagnosed then may have been misdiagnosed and never checked.

Re:Why are tech people suddenly so into homeschooling? by d4mi3n on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @11:39PM (#42707375)
My heart goes out to you. Misdiagnosis is just as bad (and sometimes worse) than not being diagnosed. I've known people who were diagnosed with ADHD with very bad outcomes because it later turned out that they had bipolar disorder; the wrong medical treatment literally ruined their life. At the same time, I've had periods in my life where I couldn't focus on important conversations with my partner because of a noisy bird nearby.

If you suspect you have a condition or someone is advocating for you to seek treatment, please seek a qualified psychiatrist who's specifically trained in diagnosis. Better yet, make sure they're in touch with your primary care provider [1]. Psychiatric assessment and diagnosis its own psychiatric specialty for a reason, but doctors with these qualifications are criminally difficult to get time with for a variety of reasons.

1. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10669410/

Re:Why are tech people suddenly so into homeschooling? by hunter-gatherer on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @09:59PM (#42706812)
Both me and my little brother were diagnosed as kids also. Neither of us have it--we were just little shits.
Re:Why are tech people suddenly so into homeschooling? by mlinhares on Wednesday January 15, 2025 @09:04AM (#42710877)
Me and my friends were in the wrong side of the culture (tabletop RPGs, video games and heavy metal) and I can bet we would all be diagnosed back then as it felt it was mostly "feisty kids that don't fit".
Re:Why are tech people suddenly so into homeschooling? by frereubu on Wednesday January 15, 2025 @05:30AM (#42709402)
Totally on board with your comments on disparagement, but there's been a rash of autism diagnoses in my daughter's school to the point where in some classes 20% of students have been diagnosed as autistic. I feel at that point people are diagnosing personality, and it's using the (UK) special educational needs system to force schools to pay attention to different learning styles. (My daughter's school is actually pretty good on that front if you point it out to the staff, so I'm not sure what's triggering it particularly in her school, but it may be to do with releasing government funding for extra classroom assistants).
Re:Why are tech people suddenly so into homeschooling? by troupe on Wednesday January 15, 2025 @06:36AM (#42709808)
ADHD and autism are diagnosed based on behaviors. This might work for cases at the more extreme end of the spectrum, but when it comes to trying to identify more mild cases, you are going to start seeing a lot of overlap in behaviors of the larger population. Couple that with extra funding for kids who can be said to have ADHD and autism, and you get a recipe for overdiagnosis.

Maybe it is worth it to try to make sure fewer kids with the issue slip through the cracks at the expense of diagnosing kids who don't actually have it. Maybe it's not, but it makes sense why it can happen.

Re:Why are tech people suddenly so into homeschooling? by d4mi3n on Wednesday January 15, 2025 @06:00PM (#42718402)
You and GP make great points, and these are situations that are becoming more common. Luckily, there is some light at the end of the tunnel (at least for ADHD). There's been a lot of study in recent years and medical science is starting to identify physiological markers commonly correlated with ADHD [1][2][3]. The sad thing is that the science hasn't advanced far enough to include these in the diagnostic criteria for ADHD. It's my hope we'll see an updated DSM and medical training within the next decade, but it'll be a long and painful wait.

1. https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/endocrinology/articles/...

2. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7461955

3. https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/human-neuroscience/arti...

Re:Why are tech people suddenly so into homeschooling? by demosthanos on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @09:05PM (#42706492)
There are many volumes on the subject, but I'm honestly tired of debating this with people who doubt ADHD is a thing. If you're legitimately curious, there are myriad sources out there about the differences in ADHD brains.

Suffice it to say that I'm sure. All of the adults I'm thinking of have had serious interference with their daily lives in ways that rise to the level of a disability. I'm the only one of the set that has been able to build a steady career, and that's due to a lot of luck and due to developing an anxiety disorder that, while not at all fun, at least allows me to keep track of things that I used to miss.

"Special" makes it sound like you think I think we're better. I don't. I just know that we don't work in the way that the world expects us to.

Re:Why are tech people suddenly so into homeschooling? by ruthmarx on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @09:10PM (#42706519)
Thank you for answering.

I don't doubt the research, it's more I doubt how many diagnoses were accurate.

I was diagnosed with ADD as well, so I'm not being entrely dismissive. In this age of self ID I think there can be reason to be.

> All of the adults I'm thinking of have had serious interference with their daily lives in ways that rise to the level of a disability. I'm the only one of the set that has been able to build a steady career, and that's due to a lot of luck and due to developing an anxiety disorder that, while not at all fun, at least allows me to keep track of things that I used to miss.

If I may ask on this point, how would you distinguish ADHD from possibly being on the spectrum?

> "Special" makes it sound like you think I think we're better. I don't.

Not my intention, I should have said unique or significantly different in the contexts you mentioned or something.

Re:Why are tech people suddenly so into homeschooling? by demosthanos on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @09:17PM (#42706566)
> If I may ask on this point, how would you distinguish ADHD from possibly being on the spectrum?

There's a lot of overlap there and my personal feeling is that they likely share similar causes—there's too much similarity and too many people with both to be a coincidence. But in the case of my family, most of us do just fine in reading social cues... when we're paying attention. Where we struggle is maintaining attention on things that don't interest us for long enough to meet employer or school expectations.

Re:Why are tech people suddenly so into homeschooling? by ruthmarx on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @09:42PM (#42706708)
> Where we struggle is maintaining attention on things that don't interest us for long enough to meet employer or school expectations.

Yes, this is something I deal with as well.

It's interesting because as a kid I got diagnosed with ADD, and my sibling who was more physically hyperactive got diagnosed with ADHD. My parents thought, and thus I did also for a long time that the 'h' difference was due to his physical energy, but it seems unrelated.

I've wondered if I am on the spectrum also but I don't match a lot of the base/core traits, although I feel ADHD or ADD alone doesn't explain some of my, ahem, quirks either.

I want to again stress there was no malice behind my question, just interest in trying to relate through my own experiences. Thank you again for answering.

Re:Why are tech people suddenly so into homeschooling? by demosthanos on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @09:46PM (#42706742)
> It's interesting because as a kid I got diagnosed with ADD, and my sibling who was more physically hyperactive got diagnosed with ADHD. My parents thought, and thus I did also for a long time that the 'h' difference was due to his physical energy, but it seems unrelated.

These days they don't draw a distinction any more. There are different presentations of ADHD, but it's all the same disorder.

> I want to again stress there was no malice behind my question, just interest in trying to relate through my own experiences. Thank you again for answering.

No worries, sorry for reacting negatively! I've had a lot of people assume that ADHD is not a thing at all, and it gets exhausting having to explain it. I pattern matched on your comment too aggressively.

Re:Why are tech people suddenly so into homeschooling? by cootsnuck on Wednesday January 15, 2025 @10:07AM (#42711639)
Look into AuDHD, PDA, and monotropism. See if any of it resonates. Definitely feels like our current diagnosis paradigm is in dire need of changes.
Re:Why are tech people suddenly so into homeschooling? by elcritch on Wednesday January 15, 2025 @01:21AM (#42707946)
> There's a lot of overlap there and my personal feeling is that they likely share similar causes

Autism and adhd definitely appear to share traits, and I suspect there's a shared cluster of genes affecting certain aspects of neural linking between regions of the brain. Even without shared genes it makes sense that a "networked system" of core brain functions would share similar behaviors if the parameters were tweaked in similar ways.

Re:Why are tech people suddenly so into homeschooling? by tombert on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @09:11PM (#42706522)
> There's a saying that if you gave a scientist the job of designing a system to completely derail an ADHD brain, they'd come back with the typical public school classroom.

Doctors aren't sure if I have ADHD or Major Depression or Bipolar II (I've been diagnosed and attempted to be treated for all three), but this fits into my experience.

I was consistently frustrating to my high school teachers, because I was clearly learning the material, but I wouldn't do my homework, and I'd get bored during class, and as a result I would get bad grades. I don't think the teachers took any joy in giving me a bad grade, but they were kind of forced into it because I didn't really fit into the bureaucratic mold that they needed me to fit in.

This eventually led to me almost flunking out, and eventually dropping out of my first attempt at university. I did eventually finish my bachelors, but it was at Western Governors University (WGU), which feels almost tailor-made for the ADHD-brained people.

I'm not sure what the solution is, but the American GPA system still kind of gives me anxiety when I think about it.

Re:Why are tech people suddenly so into homeschooling? by abtinf on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @10:04PM (#42706855)
> Western Governors University (WGU), which feels almost tailor-made for the ADHD-brained people

I would very much appreciate it if you could expand on this point a bit. What makes WGU particularly suited for folks with ADHD?

Re:Why are tech people suddenly so into homeschooling? by tombert on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @10:55PM (#42707143)
You pay per-term, not per class, and you can take as many classes as you'd like per term. You take one class at a time, and many classes can be finished after taking a test and/or completing a project.

I say it feels tailor-made for ADHD because it feels almost "gamified". It's addictive to see how many classes you can knock out in a week, and you can work at whatever pace you'd like.

Part of the reason I always did poorly in school is that I didn't like how slow everything went, but with WGU I can go whatever pace I want, and the faster I go, the more money I save. Since I'm an extremely impatient person, the fact that I was able to quickly go through the material while only having to focus on one course at a time was kind of game-changing to me.

I already had a decade of software engineering experience when I did WGU, so when I did the Computer Science degree on there I finished the entirety of it (having to start from scratch) in six months, for a grand total cost of around ~$4600.

WGU is hardly the fanciest school, but it's good enough, inexpensive, and most importantly it is fully accredited. If you always struggled with traditional universities, I recommend giving it a look.

Re:Why are tech people suddenly so into homeschooling? by brightball on Wednesday January 15, 2025 @03:47AM (#42708775)
I have always loved the idea of a one class at a time model. I think Cornell has a program like this that I read about too.
Re:Why are tech people suddenly so into homeschooling? by tombert on Wednesday January 15, 2025 @12:41PM (#42714272)
I think that there's a reasonably good chance that if school were like that by default, I probably would have done better. It's hard to juggle six classes at a time like you're expected to in American high schools.

If I had a magic wand and could make the education system however I'd like, I'd make it so every student spends the exact same amount of time on the subject, but I'd make it so you only ever manage a single class at once, instead of trying to interleave everything.

This isn't even that weird of a concept, even in the US; American summer schools will often do exactly this. Instead of doing an hour per day over the course of 180 days, you do roughly thirty six-hour days. That's how I took gym in high school, and how I retook calculus (even though I passed the AP exam first-try).

Re:Why are tech people suddenly so into homeschooling? by brightball on Wednesday January 15, 2025 @01:58PM (#42715389)
That’s pretty much what Cornell does. It’s basically 3 weeks on, all day, one class, a week off, then repeat.

https://www.cornellcollege.edu/one-course-at-a-time/

Re:Why are tech people suddenly so into homeschooling? by tombert on Wednesday January 15, 2025 @02:00PM (#42715431)
Interesting. I'm afraid I hadn't heard of Cornell College (apparently not related to Cornell University), but it seems legit.
Re:Why are tech people suddenly so into homeschooling? by brightball on Wednesday January 15, 2025 @02:46PM (#42715965)
I hadn’t either. I just saw the program years ago and it stuck with me as a great model.
Re:Why are tech people suddenly so into homeschooling? by stewarts on Wednesday January 15, 2025 @04:35PM (#42717392)
Honestly, I'd bet there are a variety of delivery models that would be most effective for each person. Having choice in that would really be amazing. Unfortunately, its also very hard to organize and measure.
Re:Why are tech people suddenly so into homeschooling? by tombert on Wednesday January 15, 2025 @06:37PM (#42718821)
Yeah, that's true. I'm not entirely sure how you'd implement it but it would be great if there was options to do the one-class-at-a-time model or the traditional one if you prefer, though almost by definition the public school system is (mostly) one-size-fits-all.
Re:Why are tech people suddenly so into homeschooling? by pbmonster on Wednesday January 15, 2025 @06:04AM (#42709610)
> you can take as many classes as you'd like per term. You take one class at a time, and many classes can be finished after taking a test and/or completing a project.

Is it all based on self-guided learning? Because I can't see how this system could work with the classic system of bottom-up lectures accompanied by tutorials and exercise classes?

Re:Why are tech people suddenly so into homeschooling? by tombert on Wednesday January 15, 2025 @08:05AM (#42710389)
It’s self-guided. There aren’t lectures or anything. They have reading stuff they recommend, and there are course instructors you can reach out to if you need help.

Some courses do have recorded lectures, but nothing live.

Re:Why are tech people suddenly so into homeschooling? by thirdtruck on Wednesday January 15, 2025 @10:01AM (#42711555)
Oh damn, xe really want to look into WGU after this.
Re:Why are tech people suddenly so into homeschooling? by tombert on Wednesday January 15, 2025 @10:48AM (#42712314)
It's definitely not for everyone, and to be honest I'd recommend a trying a traditional university first if that's an option.

The reason I liked it is because I have always just been better at teaching myself stuff than being taught. I like working at my own (usually faster) pace and I really hate waiting to make progress. WGU is a perfect system for someone with that mentality, particularly since it's inexpensive.

I think the quality of the education is "ok". I think you'll leave with a good enough education in computer science to be "useful", but I will acknowledge that the fast-pace does make it easier to get away with skipping the boring stuff than it would be with a traditional school.

If you already have a lot of experience with software, WGU can work as a "legitimizer" if nothing else, though. I had a bit of a complex about dropping out and not having a bachelors. That pretty much went away once I got my bachelors from WGU.

Re:Why are tech people suddenly so into homeschooling? by thirdtruck on Friday January 17, 2025 @09:29AM (#42737842)
Oh! Xir entire software developer career has been built on skills xe taught xirselves from childhood (never took a CS course in college; majored in fine arts) so this sounds absolutely perfect! Probably would have crushed it there back in the day, too. Thank you!