News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:TinyStories: How Small Can Language Models Be and Still S... by kube-system on Thursday January 02, 2025 @03:37PM (#42578571)
What I find fascinating is how ML models hallucinate in a way that is sometimes reminiscent of a fever dream.
Re:TinyStories: How Small Can Language Models Be and Still S... by ethbr1 on Thursday January 02, 2025 @05:25PM (#42579629)
It makes sense that the failure modes of language prediction look a lot like ADD.
Re:TinyStories: How Small Can Language Models Be and Still S... by p0w3n3d on Thursday January 02, 2025 @06:08PM (#42580036)
It's because they are precisely lacking attention
Re:TinyStories: How Small Can Language Models Be and Still S... by jdiff on Friday January 03, 2025 @12:32AM (#42582814)
Don't fall into the trap of applying human psychology to LLMs. Bag-of-chemistry quirks do not translate to matrix-multiplication quirks.
Re:TinyStories: How Small Can Language Models Be and Still S... by ethbr1 on Friday January 03, 2025 @01:28AM (#42583103)
Why not? In both cases the result is losing the thread of thought.
Re:TinyStories: How Small Can Language Models Be and Still S... by jdiff on Friday January 03, 2025 @09:15AM (#42585814)
...No, no that's not how ADHD works. It's difficult to sum up how wrong this is concisely, but I invite you do to some serious research into ADHD, how it functions, and the great variety of ways in which it can present in different people. It's quite a poor analogy.
Re:TinyStories: How Small Can Language Models Be and Still S... by ethbr1 on Friday January 03, 2025 @11:50AM (#42587206)
I'm aware that anything to do with the brain has a variety of presentations.

Could you try to put a couple sentences down on how ADHD is an inapt metaphor for failure modes in this case?

It's lazy to claim something is wrong without offering a useful point as to how it's wrong. I trust in your ability to summarize.

Re:TinyStories: How Small Can Language Models Be and Still S... by jdiff on Friday January 03, 2025 @03:38PM (#42589255)
For additional context/discussion, I feel this comment[0] elsewhere in the thread put it well.

The reply to that comment also has some information I feel is helpful to show the breakdown here. It mentions that lack of attention presents in only 15-20% of cases. This isn't ADHD, it is something new, the fundamental underpinnings do not relate, and so the analogy/metaphor does not facilitate a better understanding of the situation.

On the contrary, it makes LLM "attention" out to be something entirely different from what it actually is. Without attention, models don't become easily distracted. They are easily distracted regardless. Without attention, LLMs primarily fail to disambiguate between different meanings of identical words, they fail to take context of the sentence structure into account when assigning meaning.

I hopefully don't have to dive into psychological and chemical specifics of ADHD to have demonstrated that this is fundamentally just not at all what ADHD is. Again, there is no underlying harmony between this mechanism and how ADHD affects human attention in 15-20% of cases, and there is no analogy.

The only similarity is that they both use the word "attention". If they'd used a different label, we wouldn't even be having this conversation right now.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42585600

Re:TinyStories: How Small Can Language Models Be and Still S... by marxisttemp on Friday January 03, 2025 @05:15PM (#42590033)
It’s lazier to claim something is correct without offering a useful point as to how it’s correct. I trust in your ability to theorize.
Re:TinyStories: How Small Can Language Models Be and Still S... by hobs on Friday January 03, 2025 @09:40AM (#42585989)
Because analogy can be useful in explaining things, or it can be worse than useless - it ties our thinking up into side quests that have nothing to do with the matter at hand.
Re:TinyStories: How Small Can Language Models Be and Still S... by soulofmischief on Friday January 03, 2025 @08:46AM (#42585600)
ADHD is an actively-researched dopaminergic disorder with a host of possible symptoms completely unrelated to attention or hyperactivity.

It is ill-named and thus one often encounters comments such as yours in the real world, which while not meant to be negative, can be marginalizing to those with ADHD who see their disorder as misunderstood and the term misused much like people who say "I'm depressed" or "They're acting schizo again".

LLMs do not have dopamine pathways and therefore we should avoid comparing them to human-specific brain disorders, or marginalizing ADHD folk by trivializing the disorder or spreading misinformation about the presentation of ADHD. LLM hallucination does not "look a lot like ADD", that's such a vague and unsupported claim. Furthermore, "lacking attention" doesn't even make sense with respect to attention models. The "attention" in ADHD and "attention" in transformers share a semantic basis but are two very different phenomena.

Re:TinyStories: How Small Can Language Models Be and Still S... by robwwilliams on Friday January 03, 2025 @12:56PM (#42587891)
For a good overview in ADHD see

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.giv/books/NBK441838/

It is not “a dopaminergic disorder” any more than many other neuropsychiatric disorders. Nothing much happens in CNS without some level of modulation by dopaminergic receptors, and to the best of my knowledge variants in these receptors are not known to contribute strongly to ADHD (I just confirmed by reviewed the GWAS Catalog: ebi.ac.uk/gwas/efotraits/EFI_oo3888 ).

Furthermoe lack of attention is considered an important facet of ADHD—-common to about 15-20% of cases.

Humans tend to think in terms of metaphors. Similes and metaphors are crucial in learning and thinking. And yes, sometimes problematic.

Explaining what is wrong with a particular metaphor can help.

Re:TinyStories: How Small Can Language Models Be and Still S... by taneq on Friday January 03, 2025 @11:24AM (#42586951)
A fever dream looks nothing like ADD. If anything it's like a very mild mushroom trip. Did you base this on anything or did it just sound good in your head?
Re:TinyStories: How Small Can Language Models Be and Still S... by ethbr1 on Friday January 03, 2025 @11:52AM (#42587225)
Your fever dreams and/or mushroom trips must be a lot more narratively stable and consistent than mine...