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Re:Cable-cutting tanker seized by Finland 'was loaded with s... by dralley on Saturday December 28, 2024 @09:56AM (#42531423)
We've been following the "please don't" strategy for 10 years. It doesn't seem to be working very well.
Re:Cable-cutting tanker seized by Finland 'was loaded with s... by matt-p on Saturday December 28, 2024 @10:02AM (#42531492)
So what would you do? Assuming the boat is no longer in your or your friends waters?
Re:Cable-cutting tanker seized by Finland 'was loaded with s... by Zigurd on Saturday December 28, 2024 @10:18AM (#42531624)
Not appeasement. That's been tried.
Re:Cable-cutting tanker seized by Finland 'was loaded with s... by matt-p on Saturday December 28, 2024 @10:38AM (#42531771)
What WOULD you do?
Re:Cable-cutting tanker seized by Finland 'was loaded with s... by scotty79 on Saturday December 28, 2024 @01:44PM (#42533356)
Eye for an eye. Or better yet two eyes. Escalate boldly and actively till the bully backs off and maybe a bit more to make sure he's not faking.
Re:Cable-cutting tanker seized by Finland 'was loaded with s... by Animatronio on Saturday December 28, 2024 @03:59PM (#42534686)
Whoa, lots of tough guys here! I didn't know Java programming turns regular Joes into superwarriors.
Re:Cable-cutting tanker seized by Finland 'was loaded with s... by scotty79 on Saturday December 28, 2024 @05:46PM (#42535507)
I started with PHP... 4.3... 20 years ago. And that was just the beginning. Java is for peacenicks.

Alas, I still don't have a single tank to my name, so it's not me that will be doing the shooting. Or even deciding to shoot.

At 45 years I already lived too long and seen too much. I don't mind universe giving me its best shot at mythical thermonuclear war. I fully expect it to be pathetic.

Re:Cable-cutting tanker seized by Finland 'was loaded with s... by mort96 on Saturday December 28, 2024 @09:29AM (#42531264)
It's an act of war, and invading neighbouring countries is certainly an act of war. Nobody said all acts of war are identical, stop shadow boxing against invented positions nobody holds.
Re:Cable-cutting tanker seized by Finland 'was loaded with s... by tharzj on Saturday December 28, 2024 @10:36AM (#42531760)
Then the Nordstream sabotage was an act of war and Germany is at war with Ukraine.
Re:Cable-cutting tanker seized by Finland 'was loaded with s... by mort96 on Saturday December 28, 2024 @10:58AM (#42531892)
I wasn't aware that it has been confirmed that the Ukrainian government is behind the nord stream pipeline sabotage. Do you have any reputable sources?

Regardless, "country A sabotaged infrastructure owned by country B" doesn't automatically mean "countries A and B are at war", it's not that simple. But when acts of war happen repeatedly between countries in an area, it's a sign that the area isn't exactly in a time of peace.

Re:Cable-cutting tanker seized by Finland 'was loaded with s... by RealityVoid on Saturday December 28, 2024 @02:30PM (#42533755)
While I fully agree with your point, and I absolutely _despise_ what Russia is doing, it's pretty well agreed by this point that it was Ukraine that sabotaged Nord Stream.

There was a pretty detailed breakdown by a dutch newspaper that even identified the Ukrainian commandos that did it. And they even have an arrest warrant on the name of one of the suspects.

And let's be honest here, Ukraine benefits the most from that sabotage.

But from a realpolitik point of view, Russia must somehow be slapped for these sabotage acts.

Re:Cable-cutting tanker seized by Finland 'was loaded with s... by The_Colonel on Saturday December 28, 2024 @03:42PM (#42534503)
That Nordstream pipeline is/was owned by Russia.
Re:Cable-cutting tanker seized by Finland 'was loaded with s... by really1827 on Saturday December 28, 2024 @04:35PM (#42534967)
Gazprom has 51%, the rest is EU-owned:

https://www.nord-stream.com/about-us/our-shareholders/

Re:Cable-cutting tanker seized by Finland 'was loaded with s... by coffeebeqn on Saturday December 28, 2024 @09:35AM (#42531293)
We tried that. This is the 3rd incident in a couple of months. We should just let Russia sever all the cables and pipelines in the Baltic? I’m guessing you don’t live here
Re:Cable-cutting tanker seized by Finland 'was loaded with s... by matt-p on Saturday December 28, 2024 @09:59AM (#42531452)
So you think it's ok the break the law to punish law breakers?

I'm not saying it's ok, I'm not saying no punishment. I'm saying the punishment shouldn't break the law..

I'm in Europe, but not the Baltic states - correct.

Re:Cable-cutting tanker seized by Finland 'was loaded with s... by coffeebeqn on Saturday December 28, 2024 @10:03AM (#42531494)
I’m not really sure what you’re getting at. Breaking what law exactly? Finland is certainly within rights to capture a vessel that is actively destroying its infrastructure and has an open criminal investigation against it
Re:Cable-cutting tanker seized by Finland 'was loaded with s... by toss1 on Saturday December 28, 2024 @09:31AM (#42531270)
There is an ENORMOUS gap between "Please don't..." and WWIII Nuke war.

And adhering to "Please don't..." is rightly seen by bullies and authoritarians of all stripes as "I won, I got away with it, I have permission to make even bigger offenses."

The law is the law only if it is backed up with enforcement. Only most of the people play by the rules. Those who don't will rapidly take everything if the law has no teeth. And the teeth must come into play rapidly and reliably when the "Please dont'..." fails to work.

Re:Cable-cutting tanker seized by Finland 'was loaded with s... by matt-p on Saturday December 28, 2024 @10:01AM (#42531476)
So what enforcement do you want to happen? You're willing to break international law to enact punishment for breaking international law?
Re:Cable-cutting tanker seized by Finland 'was loaded with s... by yuliyp on Saturday December 28, 2024 @10:32AM (#42531732)
International Law is not a law like city, county, state, national laws. There's no court and enforcement agency that can just enforce it. It's a set of agreements between countries. Enforcement (if any) is done by countries based on the goals of those countries. There's no sense of honor here. Yes breaking international law to punish others breaking international law happens, and is sometimes the only reasonable action to take.
Re:Cable-cutting tanker seized by Finland 'was loaded with s... by matt-p on Saturday December 28, 2024 @10:42AM (#42531791)
I can see where you're coming from but also is there much point in having this agreement if we don't honour it?
Re:Cable-cutting tanker seized by Finland 'was loaded with s... by toss1 on Saturday December 28, 2024 @12:02PM (#42532395)
The point in having the International Agreements is indeed to honor it.

But only as long and as fully as is possible in the real world

When bad actors deliberately refuse to live within the agreements, e.g., Putin, who has broken nearly EVERY agreement he signed, there are only two choices. Push back with force, or surrender.

At the end of the day, the agreements work to prevent war, but only so long as everyone agrees to be bound by them. When one party unilaterally decides to break out and try to take territory and rule by deception and force, if we fail to respond, the agreements all become moot; the facts on the ground will be that the one who broke the agreements owns and rules everything.

It's brutal, but the agreements exist only as long as everyone follows them.

Re:Cable-cutting tanker seized by Finland 'was loaded with s... by The_Colonel on Saturday December 28, 2024 @03:45PM (#42534536)
It's the prisoner's dilemma. It's better to cooperate, but if the other party defects, your best option is to also defect (which serves as a motivator to renew the cooperation).
Re:Cable-cutting tanker seized by Finland 'was loaded with s... by toss1 on Saturday December 28, 2024 @11:56AM (#42532337)
An vast array of options are available.

Moreover there is an entire body of international law and established practice of proportional response. No, these are NOT necessarily "breaking international law".

Start with sanctions. Impound the ships, study the spy equipment, and sell them for scrap. Prosecute the ship operators (then trade them for our political prisoners they hold).

If that doesn't stop it, take proportional and escalating retaliatory measures. Perhaps start with cyber-attacks. Move to kinetic as necessary.

These are just rough outlines; experts in the area can make more refined suggestions.

Vladimir Lenin famously and concisely described the operational algorithm of every petty bully and global dictator:

— “You probe with bayonets: if you find mush, you push. If you find steel, you withdraw”

Just observe how Putin operates and it will within become instantly obvious that this is exactly how he operates. Obama took no significant forceful opposition when Putin invaded Crimea, and when Assad w/Russia's backing used chemical weapons in Syria. So Putin invaded Donbas, propped up Assad (until he no longer could), then attempted to obliterate the very idea of Ukraine. In contrast, Finland and Sweden joined NATO despite Putin's threats of nuclear war, and Putin then removed troops from near the Finnish border. Putin has threatened nuclear response to "red lines" in Ukraine and EU at least 45 times in in the past three years, and backed down every single time. There are decades of examples.

Attacking other countries' critical infrastructure is an act that could legitimately trigger a NATO Article 5 kinetic response.

Putin is pushing the edges to do as much damage as possible until he gets a response. Diplomacy means nothing; he has and will break every agreement whenever he sees it convenient. The ONLY response he will understand is force.

That does not mean "you touch a chip on my shoulder and we'll nuke you", it means attacking our (collective) infrastructure, committing open murder on our soil, attacking other countries, etc., etc., etc. will see a prompt forceful response that is somewhat proportional and imposes greater costs on Putin.

THAT is the only thing that will stop dictators like Putin and Xi.