A better question: why is an American more entitled to a job than someone living in another country? The problem with most of the outsourcing arguments I've heard is that they come down to value judgments.

I do agree though - I dislike the "Buy American" argument. Other countries are out-doing us in many industries; instead of pledging allegiance to buying inferior goods and services, we really should be fighting back by innovating and simply making our stuff better.

Still the argument fails. One country benefits from its own free markets even when others close up or try Merkantilism on you.

Why might one want to keep employment in his country alive?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ELIZA

No.

The link you provided doesn't count. First of all, it's on a humor site, and the article definitely seems to belong there. But more importantly, it provides no evidence that the models are underage, the photos it shows don't appear to be me to be of underage girls, the photos aren't quite pornographic anyways (though admittedly fairly close), and it doesn't even provide any evidence that AA attempted to represent them as underage.

I'm completely willing to hear that AA is making child porn--I have no affiliation with them or anything like that--but you haven't provided any evidence and therefore you shouldn't make the claim.

I agree with you that the models are not technically underage. Moreover, I know from previous articles about AA that they make the models sign releases confirming they are of age. However, I think that makes it worse and I'd like to explain why.

We already know that what constitutes porn is in fact subjective and was "officially" defined as such by the Supreme Court:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobellis_v._Ohio

So what I'd like to point out is that the very reason that AA needs that little signature is because they know they are (1) making pornographic ads and (2) using models that look underage. If either of those two were untrue, the free-wheeling, open-minded people at AA would surely not resort to legal means to cover their ass.

As far as not providing evidence, what is harder evidence than actual photos of AA ads? I don't see how it's relevant what website they are posted on. Photos are photos.

But hey, I am happy to link to more. If you don't think these are prime pedophile material, I don't even know what to say... you must be one "open-minded" dude.

http://www.gamesetwatch.com/2006_07_10_9.jpg http://www.wasuvi.com/images/scan0004.jpg http://www.adrants.com/images/the_tap_panty.jpg http://www.mediabistro.com/agencyspy/original/aaad.jpg http://www.jenisfamous.com/uploaded_images/leggings-720878.j... http://www.trendhunter.com/images/phpthumbnails/21343_1_230....

As for the photos: like I said before, they don't look underage to me. I've additionally checked this with a few people in other age ranges of both genders, just to be sure I wasn't crazy, and the consensus was that they all looked like adults.

P.S. The "If you don't agree with me, you're <insert x here>" approach is a bit silly. I do like to consider myself pretty open-minded, though :)

Its certainly not impossible. 15$ an hour is pretty good.

burger king workers - unhappiest people you'll see anywhere... excepting teens and other temporary situations, completely unemployable outside the fast food industry

street vendors - mostly cash income, probably make more than reported $15/hour, probably have other jobs to support them through the cold winter months

bus workers - unionized, make up to $70k/year

broadway ushers - mostly volunteers or actors who only work until they "make it" and only to network with other theater people

busboys - mostly illegal mexicans with little other choice, excepting some high end restaurants where they make more than $15/hour and do it as an apprenticeship to better paying jobs

I think most people who say that $15/hour in a major city like New York or LA is pretty good would not themselves concede to subsist on that little while working that hard... and I know what I am talking about, having done some of those hard-labor jobs when I first immigrated into the US. It only works in temporary situations such as students or apprenticeships, or as a means to support higher artistic aspirations.

I would bet all of my money that not a single person on here (including those 6 who upvoted your comment) would choose a career of a $15/hour laborer for themselves, and I think it's a little patronizing to say that it's ok for others.

Would I go back to that job? Hell no. Hauling literally tons of crates around a factory floor each day, climbing inside freezing semi trailers in the dead of the Canadian winter... all for that kind of pay? No thanks.

But that doesn't mean the pay is necessarily bad for someone who, unlike my fortunate self, has no choice in his jobs.

I do agree though - in the context of NY or LA, $15 is not a survivable wage. It's the kind of wage that keeps you alive, but also keeps you trapped in your dead-end job forever.

(I'm not saying that migrants/immigrants can't survive in our culture without English, but being able to speak English well might allow them to find careers they otherwise couldn't.)

Also, keep in mind that workers get paid for any ideas they come up with that save the company money or create a new product. They'll also get paid if they're used a model. So there are side-opportunities.

In the end, it boils down to treatment. Sure, its not a great, glamorous job -- making clothing -- but they're treated well compared to their contemporaries in the industry. At the end of the day, a 50K job coding is a 50K job coding, but I think we'd all rather work at the place that has free back massages and a ball pit.

So, can I have all of your money now? Or would you like me to direct you to a charity to which you can donate it on my behalf?

Why?

Why?

Ok? What does that mean? If the market value of someone's work is less than or equal to $15/hour, then $15/hour is a fair price for it.

Surely there is nothing more patronizing than to suggest that people should be paid some arbitrary amount that seems appropriate to you, rather than the actual value of the work they do.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

First, I am choosing to live in New York to exactly the same degree that those immigrant workers are choosing to live in LA, second, I am an immigrant worker myself, and third, as I pointed out, cost of living in LA is very similar to NY.

If you want to argue on facts, let's hear something other than "you are spoiled and don't know what you are talking about".

15 US$ * 50h/week * 48weeks/year = 36,000 U.S. dollars, I had a single apartment at 1050$ per month and a car while making 38k so I know it's reasonable to make it like that. Now having a wife and kids on that is not going to happen in that area but NY is more a place for the young or the rich.

Edit: 36k = 28k take home so about a grand a month after rent.

PS: Trying to make it on 15$ an hour in NY, NY might seem stupid, but a good internship can be worth it.

If you work between lower manhattan and 33rd st, you can live in Jersey City and rent a huge 3 bedroom for $1500 ($500 split 3 ways). Commute time is 15-25 minutes.

The only changes to my lifestyle now that I have a real job is a) no roommates and b) I drink outside more than in, and pay less attention to happy hour.

The foreign workers are probably elevated much more (in comparison to their peers) because of their job than their counterparts here in the US are, but exploiting this difference in living wage is not ethical in the least.

I personally feel that free trade is far more ethical than nationalist isolation/protectionism. (It's not just Americans that are "entitled" to a high standard of living.)