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Re:Popeye and Tintin enter the public domain in 2025 along w... by javiramos on Monday December 16, 2024 @06:20PM (#42436604)
I also love Tintin and was a big fan as a kid. Recently though, a friend of mine highlighted many of its racist elements stemming from its colonial context -- someone I hadn't fully internalized. Don't want to generate hate for Tintin, I still love it and will introduce it to my kids -- just wanted to highlight this.
Re:Popeye and Tintin enter the public domain in 2025 along w... by thisislife2 on Monday December 16, 2024 @06:51PM (#42436853)
Yes, the earlier Tintin comics, (like Tintin in Congo, which I don't think is published any more), are quite blatant in its colonial stereotypes. But to his credit Herge did change his world views (and that of Tintin), to become more "multicultural", when he became friends with a chinese artist and sculptor. (See: Tintin, Hergé and Chang – A Friendship That Changed the World - https://thewire.in/books/tintin-herge-and-chang-a-friendship... and the HN discussion on this - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36468028 ).

> When Hergé published this comic book, he was only 23 years old and wrote it as part of government-led initiative to encourage Belgians to take up commissions in Congo ... Later on his life, Hergé would say: "For the Congo as with Tintin in the Land of the Soviets, the fact was that I was fed on the prejudices of the bourgeois society in which I moved ... It was 1930. I only knew things about these countries that people said at the time: 'Africans were great big children ... Thank goodness for them that we were there!' Etc. And I portrayed these Africans according to such criteria, in the purely paternalistic spirit which existed then in Belgium".

See: Tintin In The Congo, by Hergé (Georges Remi) - https://archive.org/details/tintin-in-the-congo-herge-george...

Re:Popeye and Tintin enter the public domain in 2025 along w... by jamesfinlayson on Monday December 16, 2024 @08:20PM (#42437397)
> which I don't think is published any more

Isn't it? Not sure about today but I bought a copy maybe 10 years ago after never having seen it for sale in living memory before that. It did come with some wrapping around the front that said it was of its time though.

I got a new French copy more recently than that as well (can't remember when exactly but it may have been in the last two years).

Re:Popeye and Tintin enter the public domain in 2025 along w... by shaklee3 on Tuesday December 17, 2024 @01:02AM (#42438742)
the new version is censored. they removed things like blowing up the rhino with dynamite
Re:Popeye and Tintin enter the public domain in 2025 along w... by coldtea on Tuesday December 17, 2024 @03:49AM (#42439580)
Shame, it's one of the funniest ways to blow up a rhino!
Re:Popeye and Tintin enter the public domain in 2025 along w... by mauvehaus on Tuesday December 17, 2024 @07:50AM (#42440944)
If you haven't seen the video of them blowing up a whale, have I got a treat for you:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6CLumsir34

Re:Popeye and Tintin enter the public domain in 2025 along w... by jamesfinlayson on Tuesday December 17, 2024 @06:51PM (#42446732)
I just checked my French and English copies - the black and white edition was first translated to English in 1991 and the coloured edition was first translated to English in 2005.

The coloured editions seem to be the same in both languages except for the rhino encounter (plus the English edition having a content warning before page 1). I believe the changed rhino encounter was initially done for the Dutch translation many years ago.

Re:Popeye and Tintin enter the public domain in 2025 along w... by teruakohatu on Monday December 16, 2024 @09:26PM (#42437754)
I have not read Tintin in Congo but apparently Tintin is (or was) quite popular in the Democratic Republic of the Congo according to a friend of mine who grew up in the DRC. Wikipedia also mentions it was popular in Francophone Africa, backing up what my he told me.

My friend is a big fan of Tintin and has a lot of really nice hand carved large wooden figurines of the characters and vehicles from the series.

I would normally think these figurines would be made for tourists but I don't think there is much of a tourist trade in the DRC. These figurines would sell for a lot of money in the USA or Europe.

Re:Popeye and Tintin enter the public domain in 2025 along w... by l2silver on Monday December 16, 2024 @07:11PM (#42436974)
This guy was an asshole, even for the times. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/when-nazis-took-be...
Re:Popeye and Tintin enter the public domain in 2025 along w... by Freak_NL on Tuesday December 17, 2024 @05:04AM (#42440002)
Re:Popeye and Tintin enter the public domain in 2025 along w... by andrepd on Tuesday December 17, 2024 @06:28AM (#42440489)
The vast majority of people in Axis-occupied Europe, especially in the West (France, Belgium, Netherlands) collaborated with the occupiers. I think this speaks more to the spinelessness of the average human person than to this man in particular.
Re:Popeye and Tintin enter the public domain in 2025 along w... by aguaviva on Tuesday December 17, 2024 @07:09PM (#42446847)
"Collaborated" is overdrawn. While a very significant portion actively collaborated, it's more accurate to say that the broader majority simply acquiesced the Occupation.

This is not to diminish moral responsibility (which I think is an essentially moot topic at this juncture). But rather to bring the focus back to how these regimes actually worked.

You didn't need to be an active collaborator. You just had to not actively resist, and keep your mouth shut (or at least keep your grumblings insubstantial and subdued).

Rather like in corporate environments today.

Re:Popeye and Tintin enter the public domain in 2025 along w... by projectileboy on Monday December 16, 2024 @10:18PM (#42438019)
I read most of them with my kids when they were little; I used to just gloss over certain panels…
Re:Popeye and Tintin enter the public domain in 2025 along w... by littlestymaar on Tuesday December 17, 2024 @01:54AM (#42438979)
It is indeed, and not just Tintin in Congo, but as you say its racists elements come from the historical background the author was working on and not because Hergé was trying to promote racist views (except for Tintin in Congo BTW, because it was ordered by a very conservative editor as a propaganda work, like Hergé's first book Tintin chez les Soviets).
Re:Popeye and Tintin enter the public domain in 2025 along w... by coldtea on Tuesday December 17, 2024 @03:47AM (#42439573)
>Recently though, a friend of mine highlighted many of its racist elements stemming from its colonial context

That's part of what makes art good: it reflects its time, warts and all, it's not just something pandering to the current sensibilities.

Re:Popeye and Tintin enter the public domain in 2025 along w... by brookst on Tuesday December 17, 2024 @10:14AM (#42441994)
Are you saying it is good that older art pandered to its era’s sensibilities, but it is bad that current art panders to ours? It seems to follow that the bad pandering today becomes good pandering after some amount of time?

It is a classic challenge with art: whether to view it in the context of its time or as self contained and removed from its context. Dunno if either view is better; they serve different purposes.

But I do think it’s notable that art from the same era, created by people with similar backgrounds, can vary widely in how much it parrots what we consider to be “warts” from the era.

Compare Jan Eyre and North and South: authors with similar social contexts, yet one perpetuates racist/colonial stereotypes and doesn’t question Victorian ideas about class, and one is much more modern in its view of gender and class.

I’m not sure I would say that part of what makes Jan Eyre good is its unquestioning colonialism. It’s a great book, no doubt, but its prejudices are a weakness, not a strength.

Re:Popeye and Tintin enter the public domain in 2025 along w... by coldtea on Tuesday December 17, 2024 @10:49AM (#42442326)
>Are you saying it is good that older art pandered to its era’s sensibilities, but it is bad that current art panders to ours?

Art can be good whether it panders to sensibilities or not. There are many more factors involved than that. For art involving social critique it's best to not pander, but not all art is like that.

But once it's created, it should be left to reflect its era, its creator, and the actual semtiments he had and wanted to express. Not retrofitted with later moral posturings.

>Compare Jan Eyre and North and South: authors with similar social contexts, yet one perpetuates racist/colonial stereotypes and doesn’t question Victorian ideas about class, and one is much more modern in its view of gender and class.

They are not redducible to one another though, as they cover different aspects of life, from different angles and viewpoints.

We should preserve Bronte's viewpoint though, not erase it or reject it, or keep the plot and change it's views and morals to our taste.

Re:Popeye and Tintin enter the public domain in 2025 along w... by brookst on Tuesday December 17, 2024 @01:58PM (#42444152)
I'm not advocating book burning or anything. I'm just saying that we can look at Bronte and say "she had some good ideas about women's place in the word, but was totally blind to the racist / colonialist themes she adopted". It doesn't make her bad, but it does make her less of a forward thinking person than Gaskell.

> We should preserve Bronte's viewpoint though, not erase it or reject it, or keep the plot and change it's views and morals to our taste.

Eh, this is more complicated to me. If you were producing a modern play/movie of Jane Eyre, would you keep the psychotic creole woman locked in the attic, unchanged?

Re:Popeye and Tintin enter the public domain in 2025 along w... by coldtea on Tuesday December 17, 2024 @08:06PM (#42447187)
>Eh, this is more complicated to me. If you were producing a modern play/movie of Jane Eyre, would you keep the psychotic creole woman locked in the attic, unchanged?

Sure. I'd want to retain art as an ark of its time. The idea is to present the work of the writer, not to use their mere basic plot as a starting point.

Re:Popeye and Tintin enter the public domain in 2025 along w... by daghamm on Tuesday December 17, 2024 @07:00AM (#42440667)
Honest question:

Should we not judge a man according to what was acceptable during his time and not ours?

Herge was a very open-minded man for his time, but maybe not so much according to today's standards. But this probably applies to every man ever lived including our own parents

Re:Popeye and Tintin enter the public domain in 2025 along w... by javier_e06 on Tuesday December 17, 2024 @09:31AM (#42441617)
I think the term is "presentism". The tendency to judge past and future, with the ethics and morals of today.
Re:Popeye and Tintin enter the public domain in 2025 along w... by brookst on Tuesday December 17, 2024 @10:21AM (#42442057)
IMO we should judge people based on their efforts to improve, and based on their openness to learning that their views are imperfect.

I can’t speak to Herge or his era; if he was in the 98th percentile of tolerance and growth, I’d think super highly of him. If he was 60th percentile, less so, but as you say, we are all products of our time.

What I really dislike is the recurring talking point that we can’t judge people for merely being typical of their time.

There have been lots of historical times where the typical views were horrific, and where minorities who argued against those views were persecuted. I don’t truck with the “we can’t blame the persecutors, it’s what everyone was doing” line of thought.

Re:Popeye and Tintin enter the public domain in 2025 along w... by hadlock on Tuesday December 17, 2024 @06:26PM (#42446553)
> we should judge people based on their efforts to improve, and

The world did not change very quickly in regards to social norms or acceptance even in 1950, and colonialism was still very much in vouge back then. The US didn't give up the Philippines and UK didn't give up India until WW2 was wrapping up. Most economic studies I've seen draw a thick line at 1950 as "post war economy" etc etc. Values of "efforts to improve" may not have existed at all in the mainstream media back then. Tintin was/is the French equivalent of the Marvel Cinematic Universe today.

Re:Popeye and Tintin enter the public domain in 2025 along w... by foxglacier on Tuesday December 17, 2024 @11:59PM (#42448228)
> dislike [...] that we can’t judge people for merely being typical of their time.

That's all very noble but you have to apply it to yourself too. If you just go along with the popular morals of your time, you're no better than them. To a future society, our time may well look immoral.

Morals aren't universal. They depend on the environment people live in. As an example of something widely accepted today - we make children spend most of their childhood at school. Many of them don't much like doing that and it sounds like a fairly abusive practice if it didn't have any purpose. But kids have to go to school so they'll be successful as adults. It's a bad thing we do to people due to the circumstances of our society. Maybe in some kind of future utopia or a non-industrialised world there would be no need for school and the compulsory schooling of today would look like child abuse.

Are you sure you've progressive enough to even identify the bad beliefs of today's progressives, let alone stand up against them?