God intended for us to live forever in a paradise with Him. Instead, people wanted to be their own gods, lie, lust, steal, kidnap, etc. Even if warned, all have sinned and continue to choose evil. Suffering is God’s wrath on sin, often through our own decisions but not always. He wants people to repent whereupon they will eventually see a world restored.
(Essentially, everyone who commits evil was the cause of the dead children, etc. A collective responsibility. They won’t stop doing evil either. Not even to save children.)
Parent also tell me how the Spirit of God and prayer help. So many situations go better than they would have. That’s by good teaching (character), a disaster avoided by an unlikely event answered in prayer, more calm during it, or increased wisdom on the way out of it. The peace God gives to believers in all circumstances, an inner peace, helps facing chaos and uncertainty. Like sending kids to college knowing God is with them.
I interviewed tons of people as a hardcore atheist. I’ve listened to many as a Christian. My friends lost children, had their sisters kidnapped (two murdered), etc. I had PTSD, etc. The difference between how people experience these events in Christ vs on their own is very evident. Also, God’s interventions for those that pray can be huge.
Here’s a recent one. A couple I met in a store told me why they appreciate Christ more that week. Their son’s car was smashed into a tree (looked like it was compacted) with driver leaving his body in a ditch to die. A relative, devout Christian, felt an overwhelming urge to take a different road which they thought was from God. They saw his body in a chance event. In the hospital, after more prayer, he had a swollen eye and a rod in his leg instead of dead which the EMT’s said happened to everyone else they saw in that situation.
Likewise, my friend whose sisters were kidnapped wasn’t close to Christ. Situation made the news. Two girls were killed. Many people prayed for God to intervene. Between the attacker’s decision and a bystander’s presence, an unlikely tip happened that led police to where the other two were held. That could’ve gone very differently.
Two more. Another friend lost her daughter to a hit and run by a texting teenager. While depressing, she’s been highly impactful to others thanks to a strong relationship with Christ. Didn’t go back to hard drugs she had just kicked. Also, love of Christ motivated her to worry about the driver’s emotional health so much she contacted her to counsel her. She and the woman who killed her daughter are on good terms despite the tragedy.
In another case, baby Silas was dying in the hospital. Pictures showed him a gray color with holes in his neck. Eyes rolled back in his head. They were praying as a group for him. He’s alive and well today.
Better than all of this, our experiences with Christ just point to the greater truth that one day all who believe will be in heaven with Him. There will be no pain. He will wipe away ever tear from every eye. If they were in Christ, we didn’t lose any loved ones cuz we’ll see them again. Even those who sadly weren’t born. :)
> Suffering is God’s wrath on sin, often through our own decisions but not always. He wants people to repent whereupon they will eventually see a world restored.
So a toddler abducted and murdered suffered to repent for what? To teach the parents a lesson? To bring the parents closer to Christ? I have asked this question to many religious teachers and all had answers similar to yours (or hid behind things like "they weren't baptized") and none addressed the core that real, innocent people die horrible deaths from time to time through no fault of their own. Others may learn and grow from the experience but what about the innocent person that died?
God is sovereign which means He can do what He pleases. He created us to worship Him and love each other. He’s also painting a story of humanity that shows who He is (all attributes), who we are, and how that interacts. We are all part of the story He is telling whether we want to be or not. Christ dying for unworthy, unrepentant people to redeem and adopt them as His children is the climax of His love story.
God making us in His image means He makes us autonomous: free agents able to choose good or evil. He also allows the consequences of both. On an eternal level, choosing Christ leads to life while betraying a perfect, everlasting God leads to eternal punishment. On earthly level, our choices impact us, our families, and our societies. God lets most play out with minimal intervention. If His children ask Him (pray), He sometimes intervenes on those same levels to help them.
We’re also in it together. God judges our actions as individuals, families, nations, and even humanity as a whole. He blesses obedience and curses disobedience which includes, per Deuteronomy 27-30, both fertility rates and our health.
We also see most harms are directly tied to selfish, sinful behavior of humans (consequences of choices). His wrath is often letting our choices hurt us so we or others will learn from it. Ex: My PTSD was caused by others’ sins but my liver problems came from mine. Many health problems are caused by our diets, how we process food, and stressful choices. Our public policies, including financial investments, can help or hurt people. Individually and nationally, we can intervene (or not) to help the helpless or restrain evil. Choices -> consequences.
That all of humanity rebels against God, even daily choosing evil, requires a holy God to respond to that. Genesis 3 and 4 said He cursed the Earth with hard labor, childbearing pain, and death itself. People didn’t repent. So, that form of His wrath continues as both justice and tough love to inspire repentance.
That’s why children die. They die because everyone opposes God to a degree which forgoes protections, like against natural causes, that are conditional on collective obedience. They die because we poison our environment, our bodies, and so on. They die when people neglect them or kill them, inside and outside the womb. We’re tested where some have conditions that can be treated but we’re too selfish to allocate the resources that way. Then, people mistreat them as adults, too.
So, the combo is the moral law of God that rewards/punishes choices, free will means we can earn justice for evil choices, that our choices affect other people, and a holy God always punishes sin somehow. That creates all suffering on the Earth. People also stay evil even when we tell them that which justifies God’s wrath even more.
Yet, God so loved the world that He gave His only Son so that whoever believes in Him shall never perish but have eternal life. Whoever confessed Jesus is Lord will be saved. He’ll help them transform, too. Repent and choose life. That He offers these things to wicked people, even guaranteeing their salvation by Jesus’ own blood, is the Good News.
Is it? The fact you can do unlimited evil and be just fine as long as you lick the right boots sounds pretty horrible.
All in all, from your description the god is a pretty despicable being.
If you have kids, and they make bad choices, do you want them to be in prison forever or reform into a better life?
Does someone who sees the best in someone and love them want to hurt them? Or do just enough damage to teach the lesson while getting back into a positive relationship with them?
While Hell is for being God’s enemy, do you think a person who commits finite sins against other people whose damage does away after death should receive infinite punishment? Or should the punishment be related to the damage done? And should they ever receive mercy in sentencing if truly repentant?
God is justice but He is love. He does both. His Word says “I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked but would rather they turn and live.” His love outweighs His justice if people truly repent.
There’s also eternity to think about. Even the worst things here are barely a blink of an eye in eternity. I’d rather the people who abused me, of which there were many, not burn alive in a lake of fire forever and ever. I was spared for my sins and I’d like them to be.
People who come to Christ are transformed into new people who often don’t think in the worst ways they used to. People in my life now barely believe my testimony saying I could never be that person. Yet, they’ve seen others transformed, too. God will finish it later by removing our sinful nature entirely as a gift for loyalty.
Punishing the repentant person, who is a new creation, would be more like punishing a person who didn’t commit the crime. That they’ve walked away from sins that now disgust them is good enough for me. I’d rather see the character of Christ expressed through them. I want to see the good works God prepared beforehand when He predistined them to be redeemed. I also love hearing the testimonies of what they were and what God is doing now.
You are a great person, but grew up in an atheist household? Straight to hell.
You're a mass murderer, but convert to Christianity on your deathbed? Welcome to heaven, my friend!
I know it wasn't your intent, but we have to by effects, not intent (https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...) and the effects are clear—I don't just mean in this case, but in the general case.
"and it destroys the free exchange of views by ruining the container—the community and site—that supports it. The container is fragile and needs protecting."
"it's the difference between users who comment with care for the whole and those who don't"
I believe these two summarize your top goal. There's a higher goal that we're to balance which is giving glory to God (Jesus Christ) while leading others back into a relationship with Him. While it bothers some, I'm not ashamed of the Gospel since Christ is the only name by which men can be saved. Sharing Christ with a community creates eternal value for them on top of existing, temporary value. Also, a life of purpose with access to God in prayer to help live it effectively.
Whereas, a community of people, or moderators, who suppress the Gospel of Jesus Christ will face severe consequences the day He judges their lives. The thought of people here experiencing that saddens me. The risk goes up if you allowed things that mock the same God. Recent example in this story:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42369233
Far as "troll effects," that won't be a problem for open-minded, humble people. The Father draws them to Himself. His Word is living and active where the Creator of our brain causes it to know it's true on a deep level. If they act on that, they'll repent and be grateful for all the Lord Jesus Christ does for them. God's Word never returns void if shared.
"[Jesus said,] But the things which proceed out of the mouth come out of the heart, and they defile the man. For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, sexual sins, thefts, false testimony, and blasphemies." (Matt. 15:18)
If they hate God's authority or love their sin, they react highly negatively in a way that shows how wicked their hearts are. Jesus says we're judged only for giving them a chance, not their rejection of Him. If they admonish or censor, I believe Christ expects authorities to address their reactions, not censor the Gospel.
(Note: One person here did find some of the comments insightful. Others might have been built up. That's some success.)
Now, I'm certainly willing to reflect or share Christ in the same ways people here do other topics. Especially controversial ones. I see submissions, corroborating points from different perspective with helpful advice (I did that here), counterpoints asking their thoughts, and personal expression of beliefs in on-topic comments.
Are these allowed for Christians like they are for other topics, some controversial? Or are you banning sharing the Gospel on Hacker News where readers can't receive eternal salvation here? Shouldn't we let them decide if they burn in a lake of fire for their sins or receive Jesus Christ's gift of forgiveness?
I don't subscribe to "it's worth torturing one person for their entire life if it removes dust specks from enough peoples' eyes" hyper-rationalist logic, but I do think that "an eternity of peace and joy outweighs a few days of suffering" is a reasonable argument to make. (and the more you think about the length of infinity, the more reasonable that argument gets)
Also, my understanding of the answer to "why do innocent people suffer" starts out with the caveat "Nobody is truly innocent - everyone sins a lot (the standards of a perfect God are zero sin, not "not very much sin")" and then under that caveat there's a few reasons:
1. God's punishment/wrath on non-Christians
2. God's correction on Christians for sin (like punishing a child for disobeying something important like "don't hit others" so that they don't do that when they grow up)
3. God pushing non-Christians into a state where they'll realize they need Him (I've heard a lot of stories that basically go "my life started out OK and then I did alcohol and drugs and eventually ended up in a ditch and realized I needed Jesus")
4. The result of other humans being created with free will exercising their free will
5. God bringing Christians closer to Him (to your last point)
6. God using that person's suffering to either bring other Christians closer to Him, or to convert non-Christians
...where the reason for any particular case is probably a linear combination of the above.
For the specific case of the person dying instead of just suffering, take (1), (4), (6), and "it was in God's plan that it was time for this person to die" (e.g. because they were a Christian who He was ready to take to heaven, they were a non-Christian who He knew would never become a Christian, they were going to do something evil in the future, etc.)
A lot of the reason why people think so many things in Christianity are crazy is because their perspectives are wildly different. For instance, in almost every non-religious people have some threshold value for what it means to be "good" that still includes occasionally doing something "bad". But where does that value (and "good" and "bad" for that matter) come from? The Christian answer is that "good" things are things that are not sin, "bad" things are things against God's will, and that the threshold value is "perfect" because God is perfect - which seems nuts, but I think that it logically follows from the premises, and if you understand all the premises at once, the entire thing seems quite logical to me at least (although most people don't actually believe the premises without a major ego shift).
You do have to understand the premises, though - if someone says "they weren't baptized" I can guarantee you that their theology is inconsistent and they don't understand the premises. There's a reason that Martin Luther nailed his 95 theses to the door of the Catholic church - not only was the church incredibly corrupt, but the theology itself is inconsistent with the Bible.
Uh, I hope this was helpful. I don't expect you to believe it, but I at least hope it's logical. If all that was rational to you, then you can challenge me with more hard questions at the email in my HN profile and we can see how far I can get before I run out of answers :P
I am sure that parents can find comfort in "god's plan" when they are mourning the loss of an abducted child or worse. Unless some lives are just pawns for the lessons of others, which does not seem to be the message preached by Christianity.