Only if you're idiots.

Edit: Especially the kind that would post about it on the internet and snitch on themselves and attract undue attention from the ATF.

But yeah, some very small percentage of people are stupid and/or criminal. 99.99% of gun purchases in the US happen through an FFL with a background check and everything.

Why would the ATF give a shit? Tell me you aren't from a hunting state without telling me.. actual estimates of private sales range from 10% (NRA) to 22% (NPSOF)

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28055050/

>Why would the ATF give a shit? Tell me you aren't from a hunting state without telling me..

This trope is so tired, but since you did it, tell me you don't keep up with gun regulatory news without telling me.. The ATF has been on a rogue rampage the last 4 years.

Considering that these are legal sales between law-abiding adults, the ATF doesn't care at all. There's the perennial "they're taking all our guns!" discourse that serves to misinform everyone, and then there are basic facts that mostly pierce all the nonsense.

https://trac.syr.edu/reports/733/include/figure1.png

"Rogue rampage" indeed.. almost 10% higher than pre-covid Trump convictions and about the same level as we saw under GWB! Then again, the average person convicted in 2023 had >2 prior convictions and over 7 prior arrests so maybe these are actually just criminals? Wish everyone would decide if we should enforce laws or not.

https://www.atf.gov/resource-center/fact-sheet/fact-sheet-fa...

The ATF changed the rules on private sales. If you make a penny on the private sale, you need an FFL.

https://www.gunowners.org/new-atf-rule-you-can-go-to-jail-fo...

https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/IF/IF12679

https://myjrpaper.com/node/7745

They killed this guy over it.

https://saf.org/atf-swat-raid-that-killed-arkansas-man-raise...

All this was legal a few years ago. ATF decided to change the rules.

Also, they wanted to completely ban private sales, but a whistleblower blew the whistle and hopefully stopped them.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/atf-whistleblowers-sound-al...

So there's all that.

I'm sorry you buy into all the misleading nonsense from the prepper gun lobby..

They did widen the definition of dealers, but it's still "a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business to predominantly earn a profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms."

So casually selling guns to friends and family is fine and doesn't require a license or a background check unless your state requires it.

> They killed this guy over it. https://saf.org/atf-swat-raid-that-killed-arkansas-man-raise...

He had bought over 150 guns in the past 3 years, signed forms for each of them that he was buying them for his own use, and then immediately turned around and sold them, several to undercover Feds. He'd post up at gun shows with a table full of guns and then sell them for cash without paperwork. 6 of the guns he sold were found at crime scenes.. the result of the raid was unfortunate but the dude was exactly who should be targeted by laws like this.

Seriously, read the search affidavit if you think it was somehow inappropriate to target him: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Vjer4Tr0SJhe6ZzkUDgkjaho4PH...

Ok I see the final rule does add definitions of "personal collection," so that would cover me. "Occasionally," is not defined, so that's vague. What if I sell 5 at once? What if I sell 1 a week for 5 weeks, is that still occasional? Up to the ATF to decide.

After reading the affidavit, it was written before the final rule. The affidavit was written 3/6/24 and the final rule didn't take effect until 30 days after 4/10/24. How do you square that?

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/final-rule-definition-engaged-b...

From the affidavit:

"9. Your Affiant knows the term "dealer", as defined in Title i8 USC 921(a)(11) of the GCA, means (A) any person engaged in the business of selling firearms at wholesale or retail; or (B) any person engaged in the business of repairing firearrns or ofmaking or fitting special ba:rels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms; or (C) any person who is a pawnbroker"

Change of the rule:

"Section 12002 of the BSCA broadened the definition of “engaged in the business” under 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(21)(C) to all persons who intend to “predominantly earn a profit” from wholesale or retail dealing in firearms by eliminating the requirement that a person's “principal objective” of purchasing and reselling firearms must include both “livelihood and profit.” The statute now provides that, as applied to a dealer in firearms, the term

“engaged in the business” means “a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business to predominantly earn a profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms.” However, the BSCA definition does not include “a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms.” 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(21)(C)."

This matters because his firearm sales weren't his livelihood and could be argued it was a hobby. He made, I believe, $250,000 working for the state of Arkansas as his livelihood.

Sure but many laws leave room for reasonable people to decide whether something rises to the level of crime.. I'm not sure it much matters because he was lying on the Federal background check forms which is a separate crime that the ATF was investigating and he was shipping / receiving them over state lines, another crime that's indifferent to whether his selling 150 guns was a hobby.

Yea I saw that, but in the affidavit, it claimed he broke the rule that wasn't in effect yet. "Well he did other stuff," true or not, is kinda hand wavy. They weren't wearing body cams which is required by law. They could have pulled him over, it was a sloppy raid by a sloppy agency who didn't even follow the law themselves.

Apparently the lie, was that he stated on the forms was he answered yes on the question regarding if the firearms were for himself.

Here's another botched incident, not sure what they were thinking here. This certainly seems extra-legal.

In a similar raid last year, more than a dozen ATF agents wearing tactical gear and armed with AR-15s stormed the rural Oklahoma home of Russell Fincher, a high school history teacher, a Baptist pastor and a parttime gun dealer. Fincher now believes their goal was to scare him into relinquishing his Federal Firearm License.

“It was like the Trump raid. They called me out onto my deck and handcuffed me. My son was there and saw the whole thing. He’s 13 years old,” Fincher told the Second Amendment Foundation last year. “They held me on the porch for about an hour. I was surrounded by agents. One by one, they yelled at me about what I was doing. In my mind, I decided if they were going to beat me up over every little thing, I’m done. As soon as I said, ‘If you want my FFL, you can have it,’ one of the agents pulled out a piece of paper and said, ‘Well then sign here.’ He had made three copies in case I screwed one up. It was exactly what they wanted. I was shocked.”

Bottom half of this article.

https://saf.org/atf-swat-raid-that-killed-arkansas-man-raise...

Either way, I'm glad you pointed out the "personal collection," part.

I have so much disdain for these organizations.. there's a really important debate to be had about the role of firearms and firearm laws and overzealous Federal agents, but the NRA/SAF aren't interested in honest debate, they're just fear-mongering ghouls pumping out bullshit to fundraise off of.

I looked into the Fincher case, and it's another case that SAF is basically just lying about. They can run these insane headlines and then don't follow up...

Fincher had a FFL but no store, so he'd sell primarily at gun shows. He'd buy guns from other dealers or from manufacturers with his FFL, and then sell them in "private" sales at gun shows with no background check. It looks like the Feds caught onto that and then had a CI do a controlled buy where Fincher was told the purchaser was a felon, and Fincher didn't give a shit and illegally sold him ammo anyways.

Call me crazy, but a FFL doing straw purchases for AR lowers so he can sell them under the table at gun shows is exactly the kind of thing that the ATF should be shutting down.

Fincher indictment: https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.oked.35...

Fincher guilty plea (he got probation with no jail time - and the FFL who was holding all of the guns Fincher had purchased but not yet sold was ordered to sell them and give the proceeds to Fincher): https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.oked.35...

>It looks like the Feds caught onto that and then had a CI do a controlled buy where Fincher was told the purchaser was a felon, and Fincher didn't give a shit and illegally sold him ammo anyways.

Looks like he sold him ammunition, not firearms. I'll look into it more.

I agree though, the propaganda machines are going full bore.

> 99.99% of gun purchases in the US happen through an FFL with a background check and everything

Alot of states have classified pages where you can buy/sell firearms. Many states don't require background checks for private sales. People aren't paying a gun shop a FFL transfer/background check fee to hand over the gun to the buyer. Source: have seen many of these transactions at rod and gun clubs.