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Re:$8k Suzuki from India Received a 5-Star Crash Test Rating by Animats on Monday November 18, 2024 @10:51PM (#42179952)
> The US don't have cheap cars because dealers and automakers prefer the high margins of more expensive cars.

While BYD is quietly taking over in every country that doesn't have a domestic auto industry.

When BYD starts selling their $10,000 car Seagull car [1] in the US, even with a 100% tariff, it will be cheaper than anything Detroit makes.

[1] https://electrek.co/2024/05/22/byds-10000-seagull-ev-worryin...

Re:$8k Suzuki from India Received a 5-Star Crash Test Rating by Cumpiler69 on Tuesday November 19, 2024 @03:18AM (#42181075)
> even with a 100% tariff

You're making it sounds like 100% is the highest possible ceiling for a tariff, when it's a number arbitrarily set to fulfill a specific agenda and can be infinitely adjusted.

Of course if you protect your domestic car industry too much it will slowly become uncompetitive and irelevant on the international free market.

Re:$8k Suzuki from India Received a 5-Star Crash Test Rating by sofixa on Tuesday November 19, 2024 @05:13AM (#42181831)
> You're making it sounds like 100% is the highest possible ceiling for a tariff, when it's a number arbitrarily set to fulfill a specific agenda and can be infinitely adjusted.

Yep, the tariffs Boeing got on Bombardier's C-Series that were the final nail in the coffin of that program and Bombardier as a serious player, and gifted a great new jet to Airbus, were 300%.

Re:$8k Suzuki from India Received a 5-Star Crash Test Rating by willio58 on Tuesday November 19, 2024 @11:14AM (#42185064)
I hate how true this is. The US might as well peg the tarrif to infinity on any cars coming from China because at this rate that's essentially what we're doing.
Re:$8k Suzuki from India Received a 5-Star Crash Test Rating by yorwba on Tuesday November 19, 2024 @03:29AM (#42181151)
As your article points out, it sells for about $20k in Mexico and Brazil. They're dumping at $10k in China to destroy other Chinese car manufacturers and profitability is not required until subsidies run out. But in other countries those other Chinese manufacturers are mostly not even competing, allowing BYD to price higher and turn a decent profit. If a 100% tariff means they only make Chinese-level profit from US sales, it might not be worth it.
Re:$8k Suzuki from India Received a 5-Star Crash Test Rating by HPsquared on Tuesday November 19, 2024 @03:37AM (#42181203)
How much subsidy are they receiving?
Re:$8k Suzuki from India Received a 5-Star Crash Test Rating by fransje26 on Tuesday November 19, 2024 @04:10AM (#42181385)
O(10^9)
Re:$8k Suzuki from India Received a 5-Star Crash Test Rating by fooker on Tuesday November 19, 2024 @04:22AM (#42181455)
That's a cute way to write O(1) :)
Re:$8k Suzuki from India Received a 5-Star Crash Test Rating by wizzwizz4 on Tuesday November 19, 2024 @07:23AM (#42182662)
The variable in O(10^9) is the numerical base.
Re:$8k Suzuki from India Received a 5-Star Crash Test Rating by HPsquared on Tuesday November 19, 2024 @04:51AM (#42181681)
USD or CNY? Tbh neither of those numbers is very large for a car company.
Re:$8k Suzuki from India Received a 5-Star Crash Test Rating by fransje26 on Tuesday November 19, 2024 @09:23AM (#42183728)
USD, per year. Which is about the R&D budget of major manufacturers.
Re:$8k Suzuki from India Received a 5-Star Crash Test Rating by close04 on Tuesday November 19, 2024 @04:36AM (#42181564)
> to destroy other Chinese car manufacturers and profitability is not required until subsidies run out

So the Chinese government is subsidizing BYD in order for them to destroy every other Chinese car manufacturer? I think the Chinese government has far less convoluted and costly schemes to control which businesses live and which die.

If I understand it correctly, your theory is like saying the US set such high tariffs and sanctions so Chinese companies adapt and get so strong they can eventually outcompete any US company and break free of any dependency.

Re:$8k Suzuki from India Received a 5-Star Crash Test Rating by yorwba on Tuesday November 19, 2024 @05:25AM (#42181906)
You misunderstand. It doesn't matter much for BYD's pricing whether they're subsidized or not, but it matters very much that their competitors are. They'll charge as much as they can get away with, and competing against other Chinese manufacturers, they need to go a lot lower.

But many of those competitors would be completely unable to operate without subsidies. Take Zhidou, which went bankrupt in 2019 after sales of EVs with range under 250 km were no longer subsidized. https://web.archive.org/web/20240926235216/https://carnewsch... They relaunched in 2024 with some help from the Lanzhou city government, offering the Zhidou Rainbow at a subsidized sales price of $3,800 to $5,500. https://web.archive.org/web/20240512094644/https://k.sina.cn...

Note that there's two different kinds of Chinese government involved here: the central government primarily wants to build up the EV industry and is mostly agnostic between manufacturers, hence the sales subsidy. Regional governments want to build up their own economy, so they give preferential treatment to companies that manufacture in their region.

So it's not, as you thought, that the central government is specifically subsidizing BYD in order for them to destroy every other Chinese car manufacturer, but that regional governments are subsidizing local competitors in order to protect them from being destroyed by BYD.

But those subsidies won't last forever, and once they run out, many manufacturers will go bankrupt (see original 2019 Zhidou bankruptcy). Once that happens, BYD will most likely be able to cement their market dominance and raise prices to finally be able to make a decent profit even on domestic sales.

Re:$8k Suzuki from India Received a 5-Star Crash Test Rating by elzbardico on Tuesday November 19, 2024 @11:40AM (#42185380)
BYD is extremelly efficient, but BYD is also beneficiary of an extensive state directed industrial policy. And let's not forget that China keeps their currency intentionally devalued against the west, while the US now have the problem of an over-valued currency.

Just to add some perspective. It is still cheaper than anything Detroit makes, but 10.000 USD is a bit misleading if you ignore currency policies, subsides, incentives and regulatory differentials.