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Re:We're Leaving Kubernetes by chipdart on Tuesday November 05, 2024 @01:44AM (#42049142)
> Trying to boot the full service on a single machine required every single developer in the company installing ~50ish microservices on their machine, for things to work correctly. Became totally intractable.

This is certainly one of the critical mistakes you did.

No developer needs to launch half of the company's services to work on a local deployment. That's crazy, and awfully short-sighted.

The only services a developer ever needs to launch locally are the ones that are being changed. Anything else they can consume straight out of a non-prod development environment. That's what non-prod environments are for. You launch your local service locally, you consume whatever you need to consume straight from a cloud environment, you test the contract with a local test set, and you deploy the service. That's it.

> I guess one can grumble about bad architecture all day but this had to be solved.

Yes, it needs to be solved. You need to launch your service locally while consuming dependencies deployed to any cloud environment. That's not a company problem. That's a problem plaguing that particular service, and one which is trivial to solve.

> Both FAANG companies I’ve worked at had remote dev environments that were built in house.

All FANG companies I personally know had indeed remote dev environments. They also had their own custom tool sets to deploy services locally, either in isolation or consuming dependencies deployed to the cloud.

This is not a FANG cargo cult problem. This is a problem you created for yourself out of short-sightedness and for thinking you're too smart for your own good. Newbies know very well they need to launch one service instance alone because that's what they are changing. Veterans know that too well. Why on earth would anyone believe it's reasonable to launch 50 services to do anything at all? Just launch the one service you're working on. That's it. If you believe something prevents you from doing that, that's the problem you need to fix. Simple. Crazy.

Re:We're Leaving Kubernetes by athrowaway3z on Tuesday November 05, 2024 @04:11AM (#42049914)
Ha. It almost looks like either the fan boys or PR department is making up use-cases.

Yes what you're saying is correct, but why many words when few do trick:

This hypothetical IT department isn't able to host its own development environment, yet suddenly they do have the skills if they switched to gitpod.

Re:We're Leaving Kubernetes by mattacular on Tuesday November 05, 2024 @09:41AM (#42051768)
> You launch your local service locally, you consume whatever you need to consume straight from a cloud environment, you test the contract with a local test set, and you deploy the service. That's it.

If your services are mostly stateless and/or your development team is very small that can work. If not, you will quickly run into problems sharing the data. Making schema changes to the shared cloud services. Cleaning up dev/test/etc data that has accumulated, etc. Then you are back to thinking of provisioning isolated cloud environment per dev.

Re:We're Leaving Kubernetes by OrderlyTiamat on Tuesday November 05, 2024 @10:30AM (#42052228)
What was the point of microservice architecture if you can't develop each service individually in the first place? Sounds to me like the architecture you're talking about isn't an actual microservice, and it's just ball 'o mud over TCP instead of as a single monolith.

At a previous place of work I worked with a monolith structure, and it was actually perfectly fine. Development got done separately on several large substructures in the monolith, and devs could install the whole project locally and run it just fine.

I'm really wondering why we're all using microservice architecture if we're all convinced that to actually develop on them, devs need to reproduce 50odd of those services locally for debugging. Then what was the point?

Re:We're Leaving Kubernetes by Tainnor on Tuesday November 05, 2024 @04:12PM (#42055207)
> Then what was the point?

Resume chasing and trying to paper over the fact that you don't understand architecture, plus bad tooling that e.g. doesn't properly support incremental compilation and so makes monoliths painful.

Re:We're Leaving Kubernetes by chipdart on Wednesday November 06, 2024 @12:48AM (#42057419)
> Resume chasing (...)

No one does microservices for resume chasing anymore, because everyone is already doing it for practical reasons. I never came across a monolith that wasn't in the process of peeling responsibilities to either microservices or function-as-a-service. For project managers to open their eyes, all that's needed is something like a deployment going wrong due to a single bad commit, or things scaling weird because a background process caused a brownout, or even external teams screwing up a deployment after pushing bad code.

Re:We're Leaving Kubernetes by redman25 on Tuesday November 05, 2024 @09:56AM (#42051939)
You can always spin up several services locally or if you have a development cluster run the service you are working on locally against development services.
Re:We're Leaving Kubernetes by Capricorn2481 on Tuesday November 05, 2024 @10:11AM (#42052077)
You're going in circles. That is what the commenter is replying to. You often can't just go off dev because other people use it while you're testing, and you're back to just launching everything yourself.
Re:We're Leaving Kubernetes by chipdart on Wednesday November 06, 2024 @01:03AM (#42057469)
> You often can't just go off dev because other people use it while you're testing.

Why do you think that other people using a cloud environment prevents you from using the environment?

Re:We're Leaving Kubernetes by chipdart on Wednesday November 06, 2024 @12:44AM (#42057406)
> If your services are mostly stateless and/or your development team is very small that can work. If not, you will quickly run into problems sharing the data.

No, not really. The size of your teams have zero to do with whether your services can corrupt data. That's on you. Don't pin the blame on a service architecture for the design errors you introduced. Everyone else does not have that problem. Why are you having it and blaming the same system architecture used by everyone else?

> Making schema changes to the shared cloud services.

What are you talking about? There is absolute zero system architectures where you can change schemas willy nilly without consequences. Why are you trying to pin the blame on microservices for not knowing the basics of how to work with databases?

In all the times I had to work on schema changes, the development was done with a db deployed in a sandbox environment, and when work was done we had to go with a full database migration with blue-green deployments along with gradual rollout. Why on earth are you expecting you can just drop by and change a schema?

> Cleaning up dev/test/etc data that has accumulated, etc.

Isn't this a non-issue to anyone who works with databases? I mean, in extreme scenarios you can spin up a fake database with your local service, but don't even try to argue this is the justification you need to launch dozens of services.

The truth of the matter is that this is extremely simple: if you want to work on a service, launch that service locally configuring it to consume all dependencies running in a non-prod environment. That's what they are for. If you have extremely specialized needs, stub specific dependencies locally. That's it.

Re:We're Leaving Kubernetes by alanwreath on Wednesday November 06, 2024 @03:07PM (#42068536)
I’m sure there are legion ways to do this. For our company, it was Tilt + Telepresence. Locally, we ran our local service with Tilt. The service we ran would often need access to some other service(s), which would have been hard/impossible to bring up in conjunction with their own rabbit hole of dependencies. Thus, those dependency services were made available to the local k8s installation via Telepresence. That way, locally running services could access their dependent services as if they were running in the local environment (even though they were actually running in the cloud). In our case, security teams would only allow us stage environments, but that was enough for most everything.