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Re:AI Detectors Falsely Accuse Students of Cheating–With Big... by light_hue_1 on Monday October 21, 2024 @05:57AM (#41902444)
Oh yes. When I'm teaching a class of 200 students it's totally plausible that we're going to do 10 15 minute one on one conversations with every student. Because that's only 20 days non stop with no sleep.

We would need to increase the amount of teaching staff by well over 10x to do this. The costs would be astronomical.

Re:AI Detectors Falsely Accuse Students of Cheating–With Big... by michaelt on Monday October 21, 2024 @06:25AM (#41902605)
I said one conversation per student per class, and ten classes per year. Not 10 conversations per class per student.

> The costs would be astronomical.

Those 200 students have paid the college $549,600 for your class.

The costs are already astronomical.

Is it so unreasonable for some of that money to be spent on providing education?

Re:AI Detectors Falsely Accuse Students of Cheating–With Big... by light_hue_1 on Monday October 21, 2024 @04:28PM (#41908202)
I can't express how out of touch with reality this reply is.

The students paid me nothing. The university provides some TAs, that's it. But even if they gave me all of that money in cash to spend, this would be totally impossible.

I'm supposed to grade a student based on 1 conversation? Do you know how grading and teaching work? Can you imagine the complains that would come out of this process? How unfair it is to say that you have one 15 minute shot at a grade?

But fine, even if we say that I can grade someone based on 1 conversation. What am I supposed to ask during this 15 minute conversation? Because if I ask the every student the same thing, they'll just share the questions and we're back to being useless.

So now I need to prep unique questions for 200 people? Reading their background materials, projects, test results, and then thinking of questions? I need to do that and review it all before every session.

Even with a team of TAs this would be impossible.

But even if I do all of this. I spend hours per student to figure out what they did and know. I ask unique questions for 15 minutes so that we can talk without information leakage mattering. You know what the outcome will be? Everyone will complain that my questions to them were harder than those that I asked others. And we'll be in office hours with 200 people for weeks on end sorting this out and dealing with all the paperwork for the complaints.

This is just the beginning of the disaster that this idea would be.

It's easy to sit in the peanut gallery and say "Oh, wow, why didn't my arm surgery take 10 minutes, they just screwed two bones together right?" until you actually need to do the thing and you notice that it's far more complex than you thought.

Re:AI Detectors Falsely Accuse Students of Cheating–With Big... by michaelt on Monday October 21, 2024 @08:21PM (#41909942)
> I can't express how out of touch with reality this reply is.

> The students paid me nothing.

Well gee, there I was thinking they were paying $27,480 per year for "tuition"

Re:AI Detectors Falsely Accuse Students of Cheating–With Big... by light_hue_1 on Tuesday October 22, 2024 @06:31AM (#41912942)
That's as useful of a statement as shouting at a police officer that "you pay their salary" as they give you a ticket.
Re:AI Detectors Falsely Accuse Students of Cheating–With Big... by selimthegrim on Monday October 21, 2024 @05:23PM (#41908648)
OK, so how is it that USSR made this work?
Re:AI Detectors Falsely Accuse Students of Cheating–With Big... by ThrowAaaaway on Monday October 21, 2024 @08:46PM (#41910107)
Soviet professors were poor, so it was easy to bribe them to get passing grade. To weed out bribers, some trickery was used by state, so bribers can pay for few years or cheat on tests and then fail an exam anyway. In my class, 36 enrolled, 11 graduated.

Later, people learned that and started to buy diploma: faster, cheaper, no risk of failing the final exam.

Re:AI Detectors Falsely Accuse Students of Cheating–With Big... by selimthegrim on Tuesday October 22, 2024 @11:23AM (#41915202)
my advisor was at Kurchatov and MEPhI in 1989 and I never heard anything about this from him
Re:AI Detectors Falsely Accuse Students of Cheating–With Big... by ThrowAaaaway on Wednesday October 23, 2024 @07:20AM (#41923833)
Engineer from a regional institute received about 100 rubles, worker on a factory about 300 rubles (hehemon class), profesor up to 200 rubles, but profesors from top Moscow univs received 800-2000 rubles of hiden salary.
Re:AI Detectors Falsely Accuse Students of Cheating–With Big... by selimthegrim on Wednesday October 23, 2024 @04:58PM (#41929220)
I heard something about 160 ruble a month student stipend. Although, maybe the parents were supplementing, but he said he had to pay them back for rent.
Re:AI Detectors Falsely Accuse Students of Cheating–With Big... by selimthegrim on Friday October 25, 2024 @05:07PM (#41949790)
Maybe it was 80 come to think of it.
Re:AI Detectors Falsely Accuse Students of Cheating–With Big... by batch12 on Monday October 21, 2024 @08:12AM (#41903293)
200 students at 15 minutes is 50 hours or 33 hours and 20 minutes with 10 minute sessions. So just around the amount of time in a typical work week.
Re:AI Detectors Falsely Accuse Students of Cheating–With Big... by potato3732842 on Monday October 21, 2024 @08:11AM (#41903282)
>We would need to increase the amount of teaching staff by well over 10x to do this. The costs would be astronomical.

We all know they'll just exploit grad students rather than hire real teachers.

Re:AI Detectors Falsely Accuse Students of Cheating–With Big... by kubb on Monday October 21, 2024 @06:23AM (#41902602)
But you can read 200 essays? At this point you can be replaced with AI, you’re not adding any value anymore.
Re:AI Detectors Falsely Accuse Students of Cheating–With Big... by abenga on Monday October 21, 2024 @07:00AM (#41902817)
Essays are async and easier to delegate.
Re:AI Detectors Falsely Accuse Students of Cheating–With Big... by thechao on Monday October 21, 2024 @07:56AM (#41903164)
If I'm paying 30k$/yr the professor is damn well reading my essay. If they don't want to teach & grade, they can get a pure research position. Fun fact: pure research positions don't pay as well.
Re:AI Detectors Falsely Accuse Students of Cheating–With Big... by lupire on Monday October 21, 2024 @08:53AM (#41903644)
Pure taching positions pay barely minimum wage. Look up "adjunct".
Re:AI Detectors Falsely Accuse Students of Cheating–With Big... by lupusreal on Monday October 21, 2024 @09:40AM (#41904067)
If their situation is that bad they can walk into a local staffing agency and get a factory job that pays 3x the federal minimum wage. Poor pay as a adjunct is a situation they choose for themselves for some reason.
Re:AI Detectors Falsely Accuse Students of Cheating–With Big... by analog31 on Monday October 21, 2024 @10:43AM (#41904709)
I was an adjunct for a semester at a Big Ten university, many years ago. Like you say, there's usually a reason, such as collecting benefits while running some kind of side hustle. A teaching gig lends itself to this because the hours are flexible (outside of your scheduled class time), there is utterly no supervision, and no questions asked about what your other income sources are.

My office mate in engineering was trying to get funding for a start-up. I was trying to get a consulting business off the ground. Neither of us achieved those things, but whatever. He got a teaching gig at the community college, which is unionized and actually a pretty good situation. I found a regular day job through his network.

A friend of mine had an adjunct gig in the humanities, and used his off-time to learn how to code.

A lot of academic spouses get adjunct gigs, especially if they want to balance part time work with child care.

Re:AI Detectors Falsely Accuse Students of Cheating–With Big... by light_hue_1 on Monday October 21, 2024 @04:31PM (#41908242)
This is spot on! And that reason is peer pressure.

A lot of adjuncts sit around in precarious financial situations, developing serious mental health issues, and drinking problems because the system taught them that this is a form of success.

Going to industry and making money? That's failure. That's an "alternate career". Not scraping by in a system that couldn't care less about you. That's success.

It's pretty vile. I've never had a student become an adjunct. It would be a personal failure that I haven't given them the tools to thrive.

Re:AI Detectors Falsely Accuse Students of Cheating–With Big... by dagw on Monday October 21, 2024 @09:33AM (#41904001)
Fun fact: pure research positions don't pay as well.

Where do you get this from? The people I know with pure research positions get paid basically the same (after correcting for 'rank' and seniority) as those who split their time between research and teaching.

Re:AI Detectors Falsely Accuse Students of Cheating–With Big... by jhbadger on Monday October 21, 2024 @10:12AM (#41904384)
At least in the sciences, and in the US, there is also the issue that research professors tend to be on "soft money" -- that is they get a minimal salary from their institution but can increase it (up to a point) by getting grants that they can charge their time to. And they also tend not to be in the tenure track system. That being said, if they get large enough grants, they can make as much if not more than traditional tenure-track professors with defined salaries. But in years where they don't get much grant funding they don't make much at all (I used to be an non-tenure track research professor myself).
Re:AI Detectors Falsely Accuse Students of Cheating–With Big... by skhunted on Monday October 21, 2024 @09:42AM (#41904087)
Roughly 50% of higher education occurs at community colleges. We don’t do research. What you pay for the class does not correspond to what I make. I’m not paid enough to do all the stuff that is suggested in the comments.

The top earning professors in the nation in mathematics are all very good research mathematicians

Re:AI Detectors Falsely Accuse Students of Cheating–With Big... by screcth on Monday October 21, 2024 @07:16AM (#41902916)
Well, you could pick only 10% of the class for one on ones. Pick that 10% randomly or based on your intuition on the authenticity of their work.

That threat may be enough to dissuade students from cheating with AI.

Re:AI Detectors Falsely Accuse Students of Cheating–With Big... by lnsru on Monday October 21, 2024 @07:32AM (#41903000)
Pick 4 students per slot for oral examination and bring an assistant. That’s how my last exam worked. Assistant went through standard questionary and the main lector asked complex questions. The group of 50 was processed in a day with official grades and paperwork.
Re:AI Detectors Falsely Accuse Students of Cheating–With Big... by lwhi on Monday October 21, 2024 @06:55AM (#41902784)
Would AI be used to carry out the conversation?
Re:AI Detectors Falsely Accuse Students of Cheating–With Big... by lupusreal on Monday October 21, 2024 @06:12AM (#41902528)
When they're paying 27k maybe they deserve a lower student to instructor ratio. And for that matter, a lower administration to student ratio. The whole system is very inefficient, there's a lot of room for improvement.
Re:AI Detectors Falsely Accuse Students of Cheating–With Big... by lotsofpulp on Monday October 21, 2024 @06:13AM (#41902546)
>The costs would be astronomical.

Countries have no problem spending astronomical amounts on old people. If the country wants productive young people, the country will find a way.

Re:AI Detectors Falsely Accuse Students of Cheating–With Big... by arrowsmith on Monday October 21, 2024 @08:09AM (#41903275)
We’ve already found a way: it’s called “mass immigration.”

Why bother training and educating the young people who are already here when you can just import them from poorer countries?

Re:AI Detectors Falsely Accuse Students of Cheating–With Big... by lupire on Monday October 21, 2024 @08:54AM (#41903654)
That's what teaching fellows are for.