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Re:Ask HN: Why is there not more concern about the physical ... by simonw on Thursday October 17, 2024 @01:45PM (#41871845)
It's interesting to explore https://where.durableobjects.live/ - a tool that maps where Cloudflare's worker scripts actually run.

Notably, while Cloudflare has CDN edge locations in countries like China and Russia they don't appear to run workers there.

EDIT: I was wrong - I misinterpreted the map. A solid border circle around a location indicates "Worker-only Datacenter" (see the map legend) and there are indeed locations with those solid borders in Russia (including Moscow and Yekaterinburg) and China (Haidong, Lanzhou and more).

I doubt we could get them on the record for this, but I suspect this may be very deliberate. Maybe CDN edge locations can be run completely securely with forwarded encrypted traffic, while workers are at a higher risk of physical attack.

Re:Ask HN: Why is there not more concern about the physical ... by dtquad on Thursday October 17, 2024 @03:15PM (#41872827)
Recently, many European countries have started using Cloudflare’s anti-DDoS protection for government services, which is fine since it can be done securely with end-to-end encryption in a zero-trust model.

However, these countries are now increasingly using Cloudflare Workers without realizing that this creates total uncertainty about where their data and business logic might end up—including potentially adversarial countries like Russia and China.

Data in transit and data at rest can be encrypted. But Clouflare Workers is neither. It's data being processed in-memory where it will be unencrypted.

Re:Ask HN: Why is there not more concern about the physical ... by Avamander on Thursday October 17, 2024 @04:40PM (#41873533)
> ... Cloudflare’s anti-DDoS protection for government services, which is fine since it can be done securely with end-to-end encryption in a zero-trust model.

Unless it's below L7/HTTP, the possibility of doing it securely is very questionable.

Up until very recently it was very trivial to conduct "domain fronting" of sorts but with colocations in hostile locations. So Chinese or Russian servers decrypting your TLS traffic no questions asked, and that was with their premium (DLS) offerings.

I suspect that if you're in a hostile country where CF announces their prefixes locally, it's still doable. Unfortunately that's a bit more difficult to test than it was before.

Re:Ask HN: Why is there not more concern about the physical ... by chaikasumu on Thursday October 17, 2024 @02:13PM (#41872142)
That tool maps where Durable Objects run, not Workers. Durable Objects run in more limited locations for their "Durableness". For example, writes have to be confirmed by multiple nearby data centers, if a location goes offline they have to be able to go to a near one, etc. So they basically have their own clusters/regions.

Workers run everywhere. On every location shown on that map. Granted, you need a special license and Enterprise feature to use the China ones.

Re:Ask HN: Why is there not more concern about the physical ... by simonw on Thursday October 17, 2024 @02:29PM (#41872308)
Yeah I got that wrong - see edit to my comment, there are indeed circles with thick borders indicating "Worker-only Datacenter" in China and Russia on that map.
Re:Ask HN: Why is there not more concern about the physical ... by kentonv on Thursday October 17, 2024 @04:01PM (#41873203)
I'm the tech lead of Cloudflare Workers. I'm not actually the best person to answer the core questions here, but a few notes:

Cloudflare's Data Localization Suite gives you some control over where things run: https://www.cloudflare.com/data-localization/

Durable Objects specifically support jurisdiction restrictions, to keep your data strictly inside EU (for GDPR) or FedRAMP-compliant locations. https://developers.cloudflare.com/durable-objects/reference/...

The current set of locations supporting Durable Objects is mostly a function of where we have the resources available to operate the distributed database which we use as the storage back-end for first-generation DOs. We recently announced a new storage backend for Durable Objects, which is based on SQLite and a lot of in-house tech instead of an off-the-shelf distributed database. This new backend gives us a lot more flexibility in terms of locating data. There's a lot of work to do, but I would expect that we'll have more than just EU and FedRAMP as jurisdictions eventually. https://blog.cloudflare.com/sqlite-in-durable-objects/

Not specific to Workers: China is special. Your site will not be served from China at all (and your Workers will never run there) unless you've explicitly signed up for China network access. (I think the Chinese government requires a special licence for it? But I'm not an expert on this.) https://www.cloudflare.com/application-services/products/chi...

I don't personally know the current situation in Russia, or how physical security is managed in general (it's not what I work on, personally). I've heard some talk of trying to get the team to write a blog post about it, which I too would be interested to read!

Re:Ask HN: Why is there not more concern about the physical ... by victorbjorklund on Thursday October 17, 2024 @01:50PM (#41871898)
Nice map but are you sure it overlaps with Workers in general? Workers can run without DO.
Re:Ask HN: Why is there not more concern about the physical ... by jjav on Thursday October 17, 2024 @08:49PM (#41875341)
> consistently refer to encryption in transit

For cloudflare to refer to encryption in transit is quite something, given that cloudflare is the largest MITM service in the planet. SO much traffic goes through them and they have it all in cleartext due to terminating TLS.

Remember "Encryption removed and added here".