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Re:Legalizing Sports Gambling Was a Mistake by bunderbunder on Friday September 27, 2024 @10:53AM (#41671228)
My real wake-up call was the introductory class in my data science master's program. We spent a whole week learning about all the clever tricks Harrah's data scientists found to keep people in the gambling halls. The course's instructor really lionized Harrah's for doing this, and loved to talk about how much profit it made for the company.

For my part, I was horrified. I couldn't find a way to see some of these tricks the use as anything but a form of highly evolved confidence artistry. Legal con artistry, sure. But a legal scam is still a scam. Even if the people getting scammed never wise to the scam, it's still a scam.

The arguments about tax revenues and suchlike don't make me feel any better about it. All I see in their success is a demonstration that a great many people will happily turn a blind eye to abusive behavior if they believe they can materially benefit from doing so. And, of course, they never do, anyway. The promises of professional con artists that our communities will benefit if we grant them imprimatur for their operations turned out to also be a scam. Con artists pulling a con; quelle surprise!

Re:Legalizing Sports Gambling Was a Mistake by Simon_ORourke on Friday September 27, 2024 @12:17PM (#41672408)
> We spent a whole week learning about all the clever tricks Harrah's data scientists found to keep people in the gambling halls.

What sort of stuff are they pulling? Like sending down a five dollar cocktail to keep someone spending 20 bucks a hand at the craps table?

Re:Legalizing Sports Gambling Was a Mistake by bunderbunder on Friday September 27, 2024 @12:44PM (#41672725)
Among other things, yeah. On an individualized basis. They figure out, for example, how much of a losing streak will get a particular person to leave the table, and how likely they are to keep playing if someone shows up and gives them a free drink as thanks for being a Gold Star VIP or whatever, and how much more money they can expect to lose if you given them that drink, and use all that data to optimize who gets free drinks when.

I used to date someone whose father had a rather severe gambling addiction, and this is exactly what kept him coming back. When he talked about it, it was clear that what he was hooked on was the feeling of being a winner. Someone surprising you with a free drink and telling you it's because you're part of an exclusive club for winners gives some people that feeling even when they're objectively losing.

And that is the textbook definition confidence artistry: tricking people into thinking you're their special friend as a means to extract money from them.

Re:Legalizing Sports Gambling Was a Mistake by wnc3141 on Friday September 27, 2024 @12:16PM (#41672395)
About tax revenue. We like to think the more you make the more you pay.

But using programs like these just turn the most vulnerable into revenue for the state -creating wild conflicts of interest.

I don't know about sports betting, but I know that lottery players skew low income - making the state effectively tax low income households at a higher rate.

Re:Legalizing Sports Gambling Was a Mistake by burningChrome on Friday September 27, 2024 @11:57AM (#41672123)
Its interesting to think many of the techniques the casino's used to keep people gambling going back to the 60's and 70's are the same ones facebook, twitter and youtube all employ now in one way or another today. I had the same reaction you did in your data science class when I took several psychology classes and they talked about the same psychological tricks. You quickly realize how easy it is to manipulate the human brain and by proxy, human behavior.

Reminds of the quote from Joshua the computer in War Games: "A strange game. The only winning move is not to play."

Re:Legalizing Sports Gambling Was a Mistake by scarby2 on Friday September 27, 2024 @12:13PM (#41672349)
Best course I ever took was one on how to counter your own cognitive biases
Re:Legalizing Sports Gambling Was a Mistake by stickfigure on Friday September 27, 2024 @12:54PM (#41672852)
If it's so easy... surely you've figured out how to become fabulously wealthy? I'm curious which tricks you use.

I am calling bullshit here. There's a popular narrative that we've somehow hacked the code of the human brain and can program people to do anything we want, against their will. Nonsense. The best you can do is move the needle a few percentage points across a statistically large number of humans. This is not something to worry about.

Re:Legalizing Sports Gambling Was a Mistake by AlbertCory on Friday September 27, 2024 @01:00PM (#41672937)
> surely you've figured out how to become fabulously wealthy

You mean, by starting a big casino, hiring thousands of people, advertising all over, etc.? A small investment like that?

> The best you can do is move the needle a few percentage points across a statistically large number of humans.

That may be true, but a "few percentage points" is enough to create enormous profits, if you do what I said above. Giving the house a 54% advantage instead of 51% makes a big, big difference.

Re:Legalizing Sports Gambling Was a Mistake by stickfigure on Friday September 27, 2024 @01:32PM (#41673380)
It's obviously not that easy. Casinos go bankrupt left and right. Hell, one famous former president is responsible for three of them.
Re:Legalizing Sports Gambling Was a Mistake by Spivak on Saturday September 28, 2024 @12:12PM (#41681135)
Yes, but those casinos didn't go bankrupt from players collecting too many winnings. It's still a business and if you don't get enough customers in to keep the lights on you fold.

Customer acquisition and retention is still hard. Especially when you're not the only gambling parlor in town. You're selling an addictive product which is extremely effective over a population but you don't have a moat to make sure they're addicted to specifically you.

But government and society don't care about a specific business, they're counting the number of people addicted by the industry in total.

Re:Legalizing Sports Gambling Was a Mistake by AlbertCory on Saturday September 28, 2024 @01:55PM (#41681839)
Thanks. Having a good average profit over a player's bets gives you a head start, but (a) the amount of their bets, (b) the number of players, and (c) their loyalty all determine your gross profit. All of those are factors you have to work on.

And then your costs have to be less than that.

Re:Legalizing Sports Gambling Was a Mistake by mrgoldenbrown on Friday September 27, 2024 @01:13PM (#41673103)
Most mobile games too, not just the social media apps.
Re:Legalizing Sports Gambling Was a Mistake by supahfly_remix on Friday September 27, 2024 @11:16AM (#41671504)
This class sounds interesting. Where can I learn more about these techniques? (I'm curious, not planning on using them!)
Re:Legalizing Sports Gambling Was a Mistake by bunderbunder on Friday September 27, 2024 @11:49AM (#41672008)
Looks like googling "Harrah's data science" turns up a decent volume of articles. I won't link any in particular here because I haven't read any of them so I don't know which ones are good.
Re:Legalizing Sports Gambling Was a Mistake by supahfly_remix on Friday September 27, 2024 @01:05PM (#41673003)
Thanks! Yes, I was looking for recommended papers/info.
Re:Legalizing Sports Gambling Was a Mistake by schlauerfox on Friday September 27, 2024 @12:29PM (#41672545)
Probably here, but might be dry. https://link.springer.com/journal/10899
Re:Legalizing Sports Gambling Was a Mistake by supahfly_remix on Friday September 27, 2024 @01:04PM (#41672984)
Thanks for the link. I wonder if this journal is constrained to observing gambling rather than doing experiments to trying to exacerbate it as Harrah's is doing: "The Journal of Gambling Studies is an interdisciplinary forum for research and discussion of the many and varied aspects of gambling behavior, both controlled and pathological. Coverage extends to the wide range of attendant and resultant problems, including alcoholism, suicide, crime, and a number of other mental health concerns."
Re:Legalizing Sports Gambling Was a Mistake by RunSet on Friday September 27, 2024 @01:18PM (#41673160)
"Coercion" by Douglas Rushkoff is somewhat dated but by no means out of date.

https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/348346/coercion-by-...

Re:Legalizing Sports Gambling Was a Mistake by docandrew on Friday September 27, 2024 @12:05PM (#41672244)
The tax stuff is total bullshit. If it wasn’t the schools in Las Vegas would be the best in the country and the teachers there would be the best paid. They aren’t by a long shot.
Re:Legalizing Sports Gambling Was a Mistake by jedberg on Friday September 27, 2024 @12:20PM (#41672438)
My friend is a High School teacher in Las Vegas. He regularly has students tell him that they don't see the point in school because they make more than he does parking cars at the casinos. He tries to point out to them that those tips won't last once they can't run for eight hours a day, but the message is often lost.

However, they aren't wrong. They do in fact make about 50% more than he does just working part time on weekends.

Re:Legalizing Sports Gambling Was a Mistake by PhasmaFelis on Friday September 27, 2024 @12:49PM (#41672793)
> The course's instructor really lionized Harrah's for doing this, and loved to talk about how much profit it made for the company.

I took a marketing class in the course of my CS degree, and my main takeaway was that a lot of marketers are aliens in people suits. Their ethics and priorities are utterly disconnected from anything human.

You really start to understand how e.g. IBM could knowingly and cheerfully supply the Nazis with the punchcard hardware they needed to keep the Holocaust running smoothly. The client's satisfaction is the only relevant criterion. "But they're killing millions of people" will be met with the same blank, uncomprehending stare as "But the paint you chose clashes with my sweater."