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Re:Three Mile Island nuclear plant restart in Microsoft AI p... by closewith on Friday September 20, 2024 @09:41AM (#41601941)
> You can absolutely build solar+wind+storage systems that deliver 24/7/365 energy with many nines SLAs, on the real earth with real statistics on weather.

Once you start adding nines, nuclear starts to be become attractive again. Hence these deals.

Re:Three Mile Island nuclear plant restart in Microsoft AI p... by pjc50 on Friday September 20, 2024 @09:53AM (#41602046)
> Once you start adding nines, nuclear starts to be become attractive again.

Only if you ignore reliability issues with nuclear, such as France having to take a lot of reactors offline at the same time to check for cracks. The comparison has to be fair.

Re:Three Mile Island nuclear plant restart in Microsoft AI p... by mpweiher on Friday September 20, 2024 @10:33AM (#41602399)
Not the same scenario. First, France came through this just fine.

Second, the could have kept those plants operating and taken a more piecemeal approach to fixing the cracks. They shouldn't have, and didn't, because you really want that triple or quadruple redundancy in your cooling systems, but they could have if push had come to shove, the plants were still operational.

But since there was plenty of capacity available, they could afford to take those plants offline and do the checks and repairs all at once.

Intermittent renewables afford you no such optionality.

If the sun don't shine, the sun don't shine.

If the wind don't blow, the wind don't blow.

Re:Three Mile Island nuclear plant restart in Microsoft AI p... by closewith on Friday September 20, 2024 @10:15AM (#41602224)
Well, that's a false dichotomy, because no-one's (at least no-one reasonable and in good faith) is suggesting shifting the grid entirely to nuclear. Instead, a diverse set of generation sources is ideal, including solar, wind, nuclear and hydro.
Re:Three Mile Island nuclear plant restart in Microsoft AI p... by pjc50 on Friday September 20, 2024 @10:55AM (#41602602)
Dunno, all the nuclear advocates seem to contrast it with wind/solar, which are also much cheaper and quicker capital investments.
Re:Three Mile Island nuclear plant restart in Microsoft AI p... by closewith on Friday September 20, 2024 @12:03PM (#41603288)
Well, the point of this thread is that's only true until a sufficient level of availability is required, and then nuclear (and fossil thermal plants) all of a sudden become a viable option again.
Re:Three Mile Island nuclear plant restart in Microsoft AI p... by mpweiher on Saturday September 21, 2024 @06:55AM (#41609137)
Nope, virtually all nuclear advocates call for combined renewable/nuclear grids.

Nuclear and reliable renewables for base load, intermittent renewables for intermittent load where and when it matches.

Wind/solar are not cheaper. Per kWh they are more expensive. Thanks to China, they are a lower and smaller-grained capital investment.

Re:Three Mile Island nuclear plant restart in Microsoft AI p... by venj on Friday September 20, 2024 @10:39AM (#41602458)
This event happened in 2022. this is the only year since 1995 where nuclear production fell below 300TWh (278TWh in 2022 vs 360 in 2021 and 320 in 2023).

These cracks are not the only factor for the poor performance on nuclear in 2022 : several reactors had to do their 10-year maintenance (grand carénage), which had been delayed because of the pandemic.

It's hard to extrapolate reliability issues from an event that happened once in 30 years.

Re:Three Mile Island nuclear plant restart in Microsoft AI p... by wakawaka28 on Friday September 20, 2024 @11:33AM (#41602974)
Why did they have to be checked all at once? That sounds like a design or regulation problem.
Re:Three Mile Island nuclear plant restart in Microsoft AI p... by RandomLensman on Friday September 20, 2024 @09:55AM (#41602060)
Practically, a lot of nuclear power plants can be down at the same time for maintenance etc., so you need to overbuild quite a bit there as well then
Re:Three Mile Island nuclear plant restart in Microsoft AI p... by mpweiher on Friday September 20, 2024 @10:35AM (#41602417)
No. Nuclear power plants are super reliable and available.

German und US plants had/have capacity factors of well over 90%, and the downtimes are scheduled.

The "overbuild" is minimal.

Re:Three Mile Island nuclear plant restart in Microsoft AI p... by jakewins on Friday September 20, 2024 @11:47AM (#41603135)
> and the downtimes are scheduled.

Dayjob is in energy market algo trading and DER ancillary services in EU, and I can tell you with confidence this is far from true.

And when the nukes trip for safety reasons - which happens multiple times per year - that’s a GW that just dropped off the grid from one second to the next.

For me, I much prefer the reliability of wind and solar; never seen a correlated failure, and we know their production pattern days in advance.

Re:Three Mile Island nuclear plant restart in Microsoft AI p... by RandomLensman on Friday September 20, 2024 @10:38AM (#41602445)
France in 2022 didn't have a lot of capacity down at the same time? Availability was at 40% of maximum capacity for about a month at it's lowest.

How these things will be managed in the real world matters, too, not just how it could play out hypothetically.

Re:Three Mile Island nuclear plant restart in Microsoft AI p... by mpweiher on Friday September 20, 2024 @03:27PM (#41604871)
Yep. That was a one-time occurrence, due to (a) inspections being deferred during COVID and (b) France's long time catastrophic underinvestment in their nuclear fleet.

Until March 2023, there was a law in France that made it illegal to increase nuclear capacity in absolute terms and mandated reduction to under 50% in relative terms.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=isgu-VrD0oM

But again, a one-time event, and it doesn't change the high capacity factors world-wide (over 80%) and the extremely high capacity factors in reasonably well run fleets ( > 90% in the US, and also inGermany when they still had nuclear ).

Re:Three Mile Island nuclear plant restart in Microsoft AI p... by RandomLensman on Friday September 20, 2024 @03:54PM (#41605051)
One time or not, need to be able to deal with it, as need to be able deal with the possibility of underinvestment etc. - especially if fleets get much bigger.
Re:Three Mile Island nuclear plant restart in Microsoft AI p... by mpweiher on Saturday September 21, 2024 @06:47AM (#41609091)
1. They were able to deal with it. And had even more options to deal with it.

2. A one time event has little to no effect on overall capacity factors.

3. Underinvestment is very easy to deal with: invest adequately.

Re:Three Mile Island nuclear plant restart in Microsoft AI p... by RandomLensman on Saturday September 21, 2024 @07:07AM (#41609194)
1) It caused/aggrevated serious issues on the European energy market at the time 2) Then you might have no electricity for some months every few decades from "one offs" 3) Appeals to humans needing to be different are rarely successful
Re:Three Mile Island nuclear plant restart in Microsoft AI p... by mpweiher on Saturday September 21, 2024 @03:14PM (#41612007)
Electricity supply to consumers was affected how? And please separate this out from the general energy crisis of 2021-2023.

Since we didn't have "no electricity for some months" in this one-off, and, as I explained elsewhere, had optionality, not quite sure how you extrapolate from an event not happening to an event happening every few decades.

Gosh, so we're not ever going to invest sufficiently in battery tech for that to ever work. Glad you cleared that up for us.

But to be clear, it wasn't some random "human nature" that caused the underinvestment. It was official government policy, and that government policy has now been changed.

The renewables mafia that is still in control in Germany was also in control in France. That has been taken care of, mostly by being exposed to the harsh light of Reality™.

The law that mandated reduction and forbade expansion of nuclear was repealed March 2023. They are now expanding capacity, build first 6 and then an additional 8 simplified EPR2 reactors.

And there was one more reason for the lull in investment: France did the initial expansion under the Messmer Plan far too quickly. They nuclearized their grid in just 15 years.

Which sounds great, and of course completely puts the lie to those who claim that nuclear is "too slow". But there is a problem: these nuclear plants are not just quick to build, they also last pretty much forever, at least 60 years, many if not most are being extended to 80 years and the experts say there's no reason not to go to 100.

If you have built all the nuclear power plants you need in 15 years and they last 100 years, you have nothing to build for 85 years (or 65 / 45 years if you assume 80/60 year lifespans).

That's a problem, because your nuclear industry will wither and die in that time.

Which it pretty much did.

Re:Three Mile Island nuclear plant restart in Microsoft AI p... by RandomLensman on Sunday September 22, 2024 @05:01AM (#41615682)
The supply was there because there was supply from elsewhere (and it happened in an energy crisis - it happened when it happened). France isn't isolated.

Poor policy can happen again - such is human nature. So things need to work under poor policies, too.

Re:Three Mile Island nuclear plant restart in Microsoft AI p... by mpweiher on Monday September 23, 2024 @03:55AM (#41623491)
> The supply was there because there was supply from elsewhere

Exactly, as I wrote. Which is why they were able pursue the option "shut everything down at once and fix immediately" without any negative repercussions apart from EDFs bottom line for that one year.

(Though that apparently was not the biggest negative impact on their bottom line that year. The bigger one was being compelled by law to sell electricity to their competitors at 4 cents/kWh and having to buy it back at market rates that were spiking due to the energy crisis).

There was also the option "stagger the shutdowns and take a slightly elevated risk of one of the triple-redundant cooling systems failing". Which they might have preferred to reducing electricity supply for the country or accelerating repairs. But they didn't have to do that.

> So things need to work under poor policies, too.

Nothing works under arbitrarily bad policy, and such a standard is not applied to anything in the real world.

Re:Three Mile Island nuclear plant restart in Microsoft AI p... by dylan604 on Friday September 20, 2024 @10:27AM (#41602347)
Hopefully you have multiple reactor designs so that if an issue with one is found, you don't stop all reactors just reactors of the same design.