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Re:Bankrupt Trucker Yellow Loses Ruling over $6.5B in Pensio... by toomuchtodo on Wednesday September 18, 2024 @12:39PM (#41582152)
This is good news, as it means pensioners will receive their pensions while hedge fund investment goes to zero.
Re:Bankrupt Trucker Yellow Loses Ruling over $6.5B in Pensio... by unmole on Wednesday September 18, 2024 @12:51PM (#41582301)
Typically, institutional investors like pension funds are the biggest investors in hedge funds.
Re:Bankrupt Trucker Yellow Loses Ruling over $6.5B in Pensio... by wfleming on Wednesday September 18, 2024 @01:05PM (#41582512)
It seems appropriate that a company's own pensions should be senior claims over shareholders which might indirectly be responsible for part of other pensions or retirement funds somewhere down the line.
Re:Bankrupt Trucker Yellow Loses Ruling over $6.5B in Pensio... by snapplebobapple on Sunday September 22, 2024 @10:48AM (#41617460)
Indeed. It seems next level insanity that we dont have wage liabilities (capped at some decently high amount per month like 10k a month to avoid c suite abuse) at the absolute front of the line followed immediately by pension liabilities (again with some capping mechanism to avoid c suite abuse) and then followed by everything else in the evemt of a bankruptcy enshrined in bulletproof law. It should just be how it works with no exceptions.
Re:Bankrupt Trucker Yellow Loses Ruling over $6.5B in Pensio... by throw0101a on Wednesday September 18, 2024 @12:59PM (#41582433)
> Typically, institutional investors like pension funds are the biggest investors in hedge funds.

Maybe, but pension funds (should, at least) invest in multiple asset classes and assets to diversify risk. Not only equities and bonds, but if in hedge funds, then multiple hedge funds. Further, hedge funds generally have multiple investments going as well. In both cases if one particular thing goes to zero, not all the money (should) be lost.

Whereas with workers it is hard diversify risk away from your employer and your retirement savings if you have a pension.

This is why, contrary to popular opinion, shareholders are not actually owners of a company, but 'just' another stakeholder: other stakeholders would include employees, suppliers, bond holders, retirees, etc.

Shareholders are often lowest priority, and for taking on that risk of losing more, they get typically get rewarded more (i.e., stock goes up).

Re:Bankrupt Trucker Yellow Loses Ruling over $6.5B in Pensio... by nine_zeros on Wednesday September 18, 2024 @01:51PM (#41583197)
Shareholders are owners by virtue of having a seat at the board table and controlling the C-Suite.

Bond holders and pension employees don't have a seat to control power.

This, shareholders are true owners of the company. But laws prevent them taking other stakeholders for a ride.

Re:Bankrupt Trucker Yellow Loses Ruling over $6.5B in Pensio... by throw0101a on Wednesday September 18, 2024 @02:31PM (#41583735)
> Shareholders are owners by virtue of having a seat at the board table and controlling the C-Suite. […] This, shareholders are true owners of the company. But laws prevent them taking other stakeholders for a ride.

There are laws and legal precedents in multiple countries that state the shareholders are not owners:

* https://edwardslaw.ca/blog/shareholders-agreements-in-canada...

* https://www.ippr.org/articles/who-owns-a-company

* https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/journal-of-instituti...

Further, directors and such have a fiduciary to the corporation and not to the shareholders:

> This separation of ownership and control provides the basis for many of the fundamental principles of corporate law. One example is the principle that the directors and officers of a corporation owe a fiduciary duty to the corporation: see Canadian Aero Service Ltd. v. O'Malley, [1974] S.C.R. 592.

* https://decisions.scc-csc.ca/scc-csc/scc-csc/en/item/699/ind...

And that stakeholders must be considered as well:

> Under the CBCA, directors have a fiduciary duty to act honestly, in good faith and in the corporation’s best interest. 2 Until a few decades ago, the corporation’s shareholders were often considered its primary beneficiaries. This shareholder-centric form of corporate governance was known as the shareholder primacy model, a model that would, theoretically, obviate managerial self-dealings. 3

> However, at the end of the last century a shift to include non-shareholder interests began to emerge. Many attribute this shift to the hostile takeover wave of the 1980s, which increased shareholder wealth efficiently but left employees scrambling for work and government institutions struggling to respond.4 The shareholder primacy model came under further scrutiny, in both Canada and the US, after the burst of the tech bubble in 2002 and the 2008 financial crisis.5

* https://www.nortonrosefulbright.com/en-ca/knowledge/publicat...

The primacy of shareholders started to become in vogue in the 1970s, and so (because of recency bias) is what is best known now, but there is a history of other philosophies before that:

* https://scholarship.law.cornell.edu/facpub/865/

And the primacy of shareholders, being thought of as the most important stakeholder, did not change the legal precedents.

Re:Bankrupt Trucker Yellow Loses Ruling over $6.5B in Pensio... by itsdrewmiller on Wednesday September 18, 2024 @01:05PM (#41582517)
It seems like you are implying that this is bad outcome for pensions - do you truly believe that?
Re:Bankrupt Trucker Yellow Loses Ruling over $6.5B in Pensio... by unmole on Wednesday September 18, 2024 @01:09PM (#41582574)
I don't know who invested in this particular fund. But obviously, hedge funds losing money would be bad for institutional investors.
Re:Bankrupt Trucker Yellow Loses Ruling over $6.5B in Pensio... by PlattypusRex on Wednesday September 18, 2024 @01:50PM (#41583179)
True, we should change bankruptcy law so hedge funds get priority over employees who worked their whole lives for a company. This will benefit all workers with pensions that invest in hedge funds.
Re:Bankrupt Trucker Yellow Loses Ruling over $6.5B in Pensio... by PaulDavisThe1st on Wednesday September 18, 2024 @03:37PM (#41584489)
I'm entirely for this change ...

... right after hedge fund "costs" are limited to a microscopic amount.

If you're going to treat private financial service organizations as if they are organized for public good (i.e. paying employee pensions), then they need to operate as such, rather than as wealth generators for their officers.

And don't come at me with "that keeps the incentives aligned - if the managers/officers make money, the hedge fund is making more money". I don't buy that the only way to get effective investment growth is by making the officers wealthy beyond all belief. Vanguard agrees with me.

Re:Bankrupt Trucker Yellow Loses Ruling over $6.5B in Pensio... by yieldcrv on Wednesday September 18, 2024 @01:24PM (#41582787)
Different hedge funds
Re:Bankrupt Trucker Yellow Loses Ruling over $6.5B in Pensio... by ars on Wednesday September 18, 2024 @02:00PM (#41583323)
The pensioners would have gotten them anyway, from the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation.

The ruling is just about where that money comes from, the money would be paid either way.

Re:Bankrupt Trucker Yellow Loses Ruling over $6.5B in Pensio... by toomuchtodo on Wednesday September 18, 2024 @02:19PM (#41583566)
This would’ve enriched shareholders at the detriment of taxpayers, while also causing pensioners to take a cut on their pensions.
Re:Bankrupt Trucker Yellow Loses Ruling over $6.5B in Pensio... by ars on Wednesday September 18, 2024 @02:35PM (#41583781)
The Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation is not paid for by taxpayers, it's paid for by insurance premiums from other companies.

Also the "shareholders" are taxpayers, they are in general just ordinary people investing in businesses.

Re:Bankrupt Trucker Yellow Loses Ruling over $6.5B in Pensio... by PaulDavisThe1st on Wednesday September 18, 2024 @03:41PM (#41584529)
Although the number of Americans holding shares in companies and mutual funds has increased dramatically, "just ordinary people investing in businesses" is misleading in the extreme.

> About 162 million Americans, or 62% of U.S. adults, own stock. The top 1% holds 50% of stocks, worth $21 trillion. The bottom 50% of U.S. adults hold only 1% of stocks, worth $437 billion.

> Most Americans indirectly hold stocks through a mutual fund, an index fund, or a retirement account such as a 401(k). A smaller percentage directly holds stocks, meaning they purchase individual shares.

    - Motley Fool
Re:Bankrupt Trucker Yellow Loses Ruling over $6.5B in Pensio... by toomuchtodo on Wednesday September 18, 2024 @05:01PM (#41585434)
> About 93% of U.S. households' stock market wealth is held by the top 10%. ; While it's true that a record high 58% of American households do own stocks via mutual funds or as individual shares, in the aggregate the amount of stock most of these folks own is tiny.

https://www.axios.com/2024/01/10/wealthy-own-record-share-st...

Re:Bankrupt Trucker Yellow Loses Ruling over $6.5B in Pensio... by toomuchtodo on Wednesday September 18, 2024 @02:42PM (#41583863)
https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/RS/95-118/45

> There is a statutory maximum benefit that PBGC can pay. Participants receive the lower of their benefit as calculated under the plan or the statutory maximum benefit. If a participant’s benefit is higher than the statutory maximum benefit, the participant’s benefit is reduced. Participants in single-employer plans that terminate in 2021 and are trusteed by PBGC may receive up to $72,409 per year if they begin taking their pension at the age of 65. The single-employer maximum benefit is adjusted depending on the age at which the participant begins taking the benefit and on the form of the benefit (e.g., the maximum benefit is lower for a joint-and-survivor annuity). The maximum benefit for participants in multiemployer plans that receive financial assistance depends on the number of years of service in the plan. For example, a participant with 30 years of service may receive up to $12,870 per year. Currently, most workers in singleemployer plans taken over by PBGC and multiemployer plans that receive financial assistance from PBGC receive the full pension benefit that they earned.

> However, among participants in multiemployer plans that were terminated and likely to need financial assistance in the future, 49% have a benefit below the PBGC maximum guarantee and 51% have a benefit larger than the PBGC maximum guarantee (and therefore, would see a benefit reduction). At the end of FY2020, PBGC had a total deficit of $48.2 billion, which consisted of a $15.5 billion surplus from the single-employer program and a $63.7 billion deficit from the multiemployer program. PBGC’s single-employer program has been on the Government Accountability Office’s (GAO’s) list of high-risk government programs since 2003. PBGC’s multiemployer program was added in 2009. PBGC projects the financial position of the singleemployer program is likely to continue to improve, but the financial position of the multiemployer program is expected to worsen considerably over the next 10 years.

The shortfall will eventually be made up from the general fund, funded by taxpayers. But, we are in the weeds unnecessarily. The PBGC should be a last resort, based on the above context.