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Re:Stephen Fry – AI: A Means to an End or a Means to Our End? by fragmede on Monday September 16, 2024 @07:56PM (#41562511)
If we open up a human skull, what would we find? A clump of grey matter, a wet piece of meat. As we dissect it further and zoomed in, what would we find? Neurons. Zoom in futher and we get a mess of chemicals. As we look at the pile of cells that make up the brain, we have the same fundamental question: where's the part that understands?

Yet somehow, from the connections of all of those cells, and neurotransmitters, there's consciousness and something there that does understand (and think and reason and love). If, instead of LLM architecture, on more powerful computers than we have now, we simulated all of those neurons and their connections, would we have a computer that understands? If we then did those computations on scratch paper, where would the piece that understands be on that piece of paper?

The sum of a thing's parts can be greater than the individual parts. Whether or not ChatGPT understands is a whole big question, but we'll have no more luck dissecting LLMs to find out if it does than if we dissected a human brain.

Re:Stephen Fry – AI: A Means to an End or a Means to Our End? by vundercind on Monday September 16, 2024 @09:23PM (#41563039)
You can simulate a brain to some degree, maybe, but you won’t get the whole thing short of just… using an actual brain, that is physically identical to the one you’re simulating, down to at least the quantum level (and who knows what else?). It’s not at all certain that this can be reduced to math.

The calculations for operating an LLM definitely can be reduced to math. No reduction needed, in fact—they are math.

This isn’t an argument (to my mind, anyway) against even the possibility of machine whatever-you-like (consciousness, understanding, whatever) but against the idea of equivalence because we could simulate either one—in fact, we can’t simulate one. The other, essentially is already simulation, no further steps needed.

What you’re getting at (if I may attempt to present your argument) is that we could reduce either to its components and make it look ridiculous that it might be doing anything particularly advanced.

However, in fact we definitely can reproduce exactly what one of them does with a bunch of thick books of lookup tables and some formulas that we could mechanically follow by hand, and it might even be possible to do so in practice, not just hypothetically (at significant, but not impossible, expense) while we do not know we can do that for a human brain, short of just using exactly the brain that we want to “simulate”.

Re:Stephen Fry – AI: A Means to an End or a Means to Our End? by jodrellblank on Wednesday September 18, 2024 @09:53AM (#41579762)
> "It’s not at all certain that this can be reduced to math."

It isn't certain that it can be, but can you give any plausible reason why the Universe might allow understanding to (meat + electric patterns) and deny it to (silicon + electric patterns) ?

Re:Stephen Fry – AI: A Means to an End or a Means to Our End? by vundercind on Thursday September 19, 2024 @07:18AM (#41590633)
Maybe! But some part of it would have to be attempting understanding, not just looking at word patterns.