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Re:QUIC Is Not Quick Enough over Fast Internet by JoshTriplett on Monday September 09, 2024 @01:34AM (#41485721)
This conversation would be a good one to point them to to show that their policy is not just harmless point-proving, but in fact does cause harm.

For context, to the best of my knowledge the current approach of the Linux CNA is, in keeping with long-standing Linux security policy of "every single fix might be a security fix", to assign CVEs regardless of whether something has any security impact or not.

Re:QUIC Is Not Quick Enough over Fast Internet by kuschku on Monday September 09, 2024 @04:11AM (#41486444)
CVE assignment != security issue

CVE numbers are just a way to ensure everyone is talking about the same bug. Not every security issue has a CVE, not every CVE is a security issue.

Often, a regular bug turns out years later to have been a security issue, or a security issue turns out to have no security impact at all.

If you want a central authority to tell you what to think, just use CVSS instead of the binary "does it have a CVE" metric.

Re:QUIC Is Not Quick Enough over Fast Internet by skywhopper on Monday September 09, 2024 @06:56AM (#41487238)
That’s definitely not the understanding that literally anyone outside the Linux team has for what a CVE is, including the people who came up with them and run the database. Overloading a well-established mechanism of communicating security issues to just be a registry of Linux bugs is an abuse of an important shared resource. Sure “anything could be a security issue” but in practice, most bugs aren’t, and putting meaningless bugs into the international security issue database is just a waste of everyone’s time and energy to make a very stupid point.
Re:QUIC Is Not Quick Enough over Fast Internet by kuschku on Monday September 09, 2024 @08:07AM (#41487762)
> including the people who came up with them

How do you figure that? The original definition of CVE is exactly the same as how Linux approaches it.

Sure, in recent years security consultants have been overloading CVE to mean something else, but that's something to fix, not to keep.

Re:QUIC Is Not Quick Enough over Fast Internet by jiripospisil on Monday September 09, 2024 @08:43AM (#41487973)
Can you post the original definition?
Re:QUIC Is Not Quick Enough over Fast Internet by vel0city on Monday September 09, 2024 @09:46AM (#41488525)
Common Vulnerabilities and Exposures
Re:QUIC Is Not Quick Enough over Fast Internet by jiripospisil on Monday September 09, 2024 @10:02AM (#41488683)
Right but I was hoping for a definition which supports OP's claim that "CVE assignment != security issue".
Re:QUIC Is Not Quick Enough over Fast Internet by kuschku on Monday September 09, 2024 @10:04AM (#41488698)
Then check out these definitions, from 2000, defined by the CVE editorial board:

> The CVE list aspires to describe and name all publicly known facts about computer systems that could allow somebody to violate a reasonable security policy for that system

As well as:

> Discussions on the Editorial Board mailing list and during the CVE Review meetings indicate that there is no definition for a "vulnerability" that is acceptable to the entire community. At least two different definitions of vulnerability have arisen and been discussed. There appears to be a universally accepted, historically grounded, "core" definition which deals primarily with specific flaws that directly allow some compromise of the system (a "universal" definition). A broader definition includes problems that don't directly allow compromise, but could be an important component of a successful attack, and are a violation of some security policies (a "contingent" definition).

> In accordance with the original stated requirements for the CVE, the CVE should remain independent of multiple perspectives. Since the definition of "vulnerability" varies so widely depending on context and policy, the CVE should avoid imposing an overly restrictive perspective on the vulnerability definition itself.

Under this definition, any kernel bug that could lead to user-space software acting differently is a CVE. Similarly, all memory management bugs in the kernel justify a CVE, as they could be used as part of an exploit.

Re:QUIC Is Not Quick Enough over Fast Internet by jiripospisil on Monday September 09, 2024 @10:14AM (#41488780)
> to violate a reasonable security policy for that system

> with specific flaws that directly allow some compromise of the system

> important component of a successful attack, and are a violation of some security policies

All of these are talking about security issues, not "acting differently".

Re:QUIC Is Not Quick Enough over Fast Internet by kuschku on Monday September 09, 2024 @11:34AM (#41489551)
> important component of a successful attack, and are a violation of some security policies

If the kernel returned random values from gettime, that'd lead to tls certificate validation not being reliable anymore. As result, any bug in gettime is certainly worthy of a CVE.

If the kernel shuffled filenames so they'd be returned backwards, apparmor and selinux profiles would break. As result, that'd be worthy of a CVE.

If the kernel has a memory corruption, use after free, use of uninitialized memory or refcounting issue, that's obviously a violation of security best practices and can be used as component in an exploit chain.

Can you now see how almost every kernel bug can and most certainly will be turned into a security issue at some point?

Re:QUIC Is Not Quick Enough over Fast Internet by josefx on Monday September 09, 2024 @11:31AM (#41489514)
> All of these are talking about security issues, not "acting differently".

Because no system has been ever taken down by code that behaved different from what it was expected to do? Right? Like http desync attacks, sql escape bypasses, ... . Absolutely no security issue going to be caused by a very minor and by itself very secure difference in behavior.

Re:QUIC Is Not Quick Enough over Fast Internet by cryptonector on Monday September 09, 2024 @06:05PM (#41494573)
> that could allow somebody to violate a reasonable security policy for that system

That's "security bug". Please stop saying it's not.

Re:QUIC Is Not Quick Enough over Fast Internet by kuschku on Monday September 09, 2024 @06:08PM (#41494613)
As detailed in my sibling reply, by definition that includes any bug in gettime (as that'd affect tls certificate validation), any bug in a filesystem (as that'd affect loading of selinux/apparmor profiles), any bug in eBPF (as that'd affect network filtering), etc.

Additionally, any security bug in the kernel itself, so any use after free, any refcounting bug, any use of uninitialized memory.

Can you now see why pretty much every kernel bug fulfills that definition?

Re:QUIC Is Not Quick Enough over Fast Internet by simiones on Monday September 09, 2024 @09:52AM (#41488590)
This is completely false. The CVE website defines these very clearly:

> The mission of the CVE® Program is to identify, define, and catalog publicly disclosed cybersecurity vulnerabilities [emphasis mine].

In fact, CVE stands for "Common Vulnerabilities and Exposures", again showing that CVE == security issue.

It's of course true that just because your code has an unpatched CVE doesn't automatically mean that your system is vulnerable - other mitigations can be in place to protect it.

Re:QUIC Is Not Quick Enough over Fast Internet by kuschku on Monday September 09, 2024 @10:03AM (#41488689)
That's the modern definition, which is rewriting history. Let's look at the actual, original definition:

> The CVE list aspires to describe and name all publicly known facts about computer systems that could allow somebody to violate a reasonable security policy for that system

There's also a decision from the editorial board on this, which said:

> Discussions on the Editorial Board mailing list and during the CVE Review meetings indicate that there is no definition for a "vulnerability" that is acceptable to the entire community. At least two different definitions of vulnerability have arisen and been discussed. There appears to be a universally accepted, historically grounded, "core" definition which deals primarily with specific flaws that directly allow some compromise of the system (a "universal" definition). A broader definition includes problems that don't directly allow compromise, but could be an important component of a successful attack, and are a violation of some security policies (a "contingent" definition).

> In accordance with the original stated requirements for the CVE, the CVE should remain independent of multiple perspectives. Since the definition of "vulnerability" varies so widely depending on context and policy, the CVE should avoid imposing an overly restrictive perspective on the vulnerability definition itself.

For more details, see https://web.archive.org/web/20000526190637fw_/http://www.cve... and https://web.archive.org/web/20020617142755/http://cve.mitre....

Under this definition, any kernel bug that could lead to user-space software acting differently is a CVE. Similarly, all memory management bugs in the kernel justify a CVE, as they could be used as part of an exploit.

Re:QUIC Is Not Quick Enough over Fast Internet by simiones on Monday September 09, 2024 @10:36AM (#41488945)
Those two links say that CVEs can be one of two categories: universal vulnerabilities or exposures. But the examples of exposures are not, in any way, "any bug in the kernel". They give specific examples of things which are known to make a system more vulnerable to attack, even if not everyone would agree that they are a problem.

So yes, any CVE is supposed to be a security problem, and it has always been so. Maybe not for your specific system or for your specific security posture, but for someone's.

Extending this to any bugfix is a serious misunderstanding of what an "exposure" means, and it is a serious difference from other CNAs. Linux CNA-assigned CVEs just can't be taken as seriously as normal CNAs.

Re:QUIC Is Not Quick Enough over Fast Internet by wtarreau on Wednesday September 11, 2024 @02:53AM (#41508699)
Nowadays the vast majority of CVEs have nothing to do with security, they're just Curriculum Vitae Enhancers, i.e. a student finding that "with my discovery, if A, B, C and D were granted, I could possibly gain some privileges", despite A/B/C/D being mutually exclusive. That's every days job for any security people to sort out that garbage. So what the kernel does is not worse at all.
Re:QUIC Is Not Quick Enough over Fast Internet by di4na on Monday September 09, 2024 @01:53AM (#41485801)
I would not call it harm. The use of uring in higher level languages is definitely prone to errors, bugs and security problems
Re:QUIC Is Not Quick Enough over Fast Internet by JoshTriplett on Monday September 09, 2024 @02:05AM (#41485864)
See the context I added to that comment; this is not about security issues, it's about the Linux CNA's absurd approach to CVE assignment for things that aren't CVEs.
Re:QUIC Is Not Quick Enough over Fast Internet by tialaramex on Monday September 09, 2024 @08:36AM (#41487933)
I don't agree that it's absurd. I would say it reflects a proper understanding of their situation.

You've doubtless heard Tony Hoare's "There are two ways to write code: write code so simple there are obviously no bugs in it, or write code so complex that there are no obvious bugs in it.". Linux is definitely in the latter category, it's now such a sprawling system that determining whether a bug "really" has security implications is no long a reasonable task compared to just fixing the bug.

The other reason is that Linux is so widely used that almost no assumption made to simplify that above task is definitely correct.

Re:QUIC Is Not Quick Enough over Fast Internet by JoshTriplett on Monday September 09, 2024 @08:46AM (#41488002)
That's fine, except that it is thus no longer meaningful to compare CVE count.
Re:QUIC Is Not Quick Enough over Fast Internet by hifromwork on Monday September 09, 2024 @10:00AM (#41488667)
I like CVEs, I think Linux approach to CVEs is stupid, but also it was never meaningful to compare CVE count. But I guess it's hard to make people stop doing that, and that's the reason Linux does the thing it does out of spite.
Re:QUIC Is Not Quick Enough over Fast Internet by immibis on Monday September 09, 2024 @07:05AM (#41487305)
As I understand it, they adopted this policy because the other policy was also causing harm.

They are right, by the way. When CVEs were used for things like Heartbleed they made sense - you could point to Heartbleed's CVE number and query various information systems about vulnerable systems. When every single possible security fix gets one, AND automated systems are checking the you've patched every single one or else you fail the audit (even ones completely irrelevant to the system, like RCE on an embedded device with no internet access) the system is not doing anything useful - it's deleting value from the world and must be repaired or destroyed.

Re:QUIC Is Not Quick Enough over Fast Internet by hifromwork on Monday September 09, 2024 @09:58AM (#41488648)
The problem here are the automated systems and braindead auditors, not the CVE system itself.
Re:QUIC Is Not Quick Enough over Fast Internet by immibis on Monday September 09, 2024 @02:59PM (#41492208)
Well, the CVE system itself is only about assigning identifiers, and assigning identifiers unnecessarily couldn't possibly hurt anyone, who isn't misusing the system, unless they're running out of identifiers.