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Re:Malaysia started mandating ISPs to redirect DNS queries t... by AnthonyMouse on Saturday September 07, 2024 @01:46AM (#41471723)
The backlash against DoH is that the implementations switch your DNS server without asking to a centralized one which is presumably data mining the queries, default ignoring the one you configured in your operating system or DHCP server.

There is also nothing wrong with using UDP for DNS. And the latency can be better, and in this context that matters. The real problem is that the UDP DNS protocol isn't encrypted. But there is no reason it couldn't be, except that then nobody gets a new source of DNS queries to data mine, which is where the money comes from to push DoH.

Re:Malaysia started mandating ISPs to redirect DNS queries t... by JoshTriplett on Saturday September 07, 2024 @02:05AM (#41471801)
ISPs regularly data-mine their users' traffic. Meanwhile, some of the major DoH servers specifically don't. (See, for instance, the deals Mozilla has with their default DoH providers.)
Re:Malaysia started mandating ISPs to redirect DNS queries t... by jjav on Saturday September 07, 2024 @05:02AM (#41472593)
> Meanwhile, some of the major DoH servers specifically don't.

You can't possible make that assertion, because all it takes is one NSL and they will log and share it all.

Re:Malaysia started mandating ISPs to redirect DNS queries t... by belorn on Saturday September 07, 2024 @05:33AM (#41472754)
The policy that Mozilla ask providers to follow does not prohibit data-mining the traffic. Providers are requested to not store or share personal information, but any data-mining that removes personal identifiable information are allowed.

For example, accidentally leaked internal network queries from companies are up to grabs. As is market data like what people are querying, how much, when, from where (geographical for example) and to whom, and so on.

The quality of the anonymization of private information are also not guarantied.

Re:Malaysia started mandating ISPs to redirect DNS queries t... by Drawde on Saturday September 07, 2024 @08:14AM (#41473477)
> See, for instance, the deals Mozilla has with their default DoH providers.

Like the one they had that just circled back around to the ISPs that regularly data-mine their users' traffic?: https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2020/06/comcast-mozilla-...

Re:Malaysia started mandating ISPs to redirect DNS queries t... by chgs on Saturday September 07, 2024 @09:13AM (#41473766)
My ISP doesn’t but the people who run the increasingly centralised internet have a long track record of mining my data for commercial reasons.

I’ll trust my ISP over Google or Cloudflare or Microsoft or DuckDuckGo any day.

Re:Malaysia started mandating ISPs to redirect DNS queries t... by A4ET8a8uTh0 on Saturday September 07, 2024 @09:30AM (#41473841)
I think reasonable people these days don't really trust a provider even if they have explicit contract stating something. Personally, I just trust my ISP a little more than google when it comes to data. But I absolutely do not dream for one moment that they do not want to play with analyzing/monetizing/god knows what else with that data.
Re:Malaysia started mandating ISPs to redirect DNS queries t... by tremon on Saturday September 07, 2024 @03:08PM (#41475746)
I'm sorry, but this is an argument straight out of the totalitarian's playbook, and I'm going to call you out on it.

Some <bad people> abuse <x>, therefore it is totally justified for us to impose a wholesale replacement of <x> with a solution that we can control centrally. It's for your own safety!

Never mind all the people that don't have data-mining ISP's, and to hell with end-user consent. We don't need that, we're working for the good of everyone. My piety trumps all!

Re:Malaysia started mandating ISPs to redirect DNS queries t... by JoshTriplett on Sunday September 08, 2024 @01:16PM (#41481628)
Nothing about the DoH protocol is any more centrally controlled than DNS; that's the point. DoH treats the network as an adversary, and instead ensures the end-user's system can determine what DNS server to talk to and that their traffic can't be spied upon by an intermediary. That part is a feature, just as HTTPS was. (And there were people who complained about the push for universal HTTPS, too.)

Separately from that, there's the issue of how to transition over to DoH, in a world in which many ISPs and networks are hostile. That is the point at which browsers are using the small handful of early-adopter DoH servers and assuming on behalf of some users that they want to use those instead of the servers from their ISP or other network. That part is debatable, and involves tradeoffs between protecting users who don't understand DNS or security and supporting users who do.

DoH gives users the ability to ensure they're talking to the server they think they are, and not get their queries spied on or hijacked. That is the part I'm advocating here: having a protocol that cuts out MITMs and prevents spying on the network traffic. That doesn't solve the problem of needing a trusted DNS server to talk to; it solves the problem of not being sure you're talking to the server you think you are, and not being sure if some part of the network between you and that server is spying on you.

If you have a DNS server you like and trust, whether that's from your ISP or something else entirely, that's great for you! DoH would still be a better protocol to use to talk to that DNS server, rather than the unencrypted DNS protocol.

Re:Malaysia started mandating ISPs to redirect DNS queries t... by 55555 on Saturday September 07, 2024 @01:39PM (#41475162)
> The backlash against DoH is that the implementations switch your DNS server without asking to a centralized one which is presumably data mining the queries, default ignoring the one you configured in your operating system or DHCP server.

With, say, a proxy app on MacOS, I don't see how they could do this without consent?

Re:Malaysia started mandating ISPs to redirect DNS queries t... by AnthonyMouse on Saturday September 07, 2024 @03:36PM (#41475926)
It's not that there is no way to turn it off, it's that you have to take affirmative steps to turn it off, so now people are having their queries sent to a central server by default and you have to go out of your way to stop it. And then most people don't even know that it's happening, much less what to do about it.
Re:Malaysia started mandating ISPs to redirect DNS queries t... by diogocp on Saturday September 07, 2024 @02:13PM (#41475398)
> The backlash against DoH is that the implementations switch your DNS server without asking

Actually they do ask, by querying use-application-dns.net.

Re:Malaysia started mandating ISPs to redirect DNS queries t... by AnthonyMouse on Saturday September 07, 2024 @03:36PM (#41475924)
The default is not for this to respond in a way that disables changing your DNS server, therefore they're changing the default without asking.

Notice that you could do this the other way: Query a value in the existing (local) DNS or DHCP that not only allows you to enable DoH but also specify which server all the local devices should use. Then if the DNS server chosen by the local administrator/user supports DoH, it could respond by saying so and you could use the protocol without changing your DNS server. But that's not how they did it.