News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Why do you think people are poor? by ismarc on Friday June 22, 2012 @03:52AM (#4145878)
It's hard to write this, and my opinion is probably biased because of it, but this article is nothing but a giant load of horse shit and is a carefully constructed as "feel good" to reinforce the preconceived notions the author had going into it. A little bit of background; I grew up poor, people randomly leaving food on our doorstep poor, my parents giving the bike I had bought with my own earned money to my brother for christmas poor, moving every couple of years because my dad would make a bad enough name for himself in an entire town/city that he couldn't get a job poor. I was rejected from his classes (I was actually living in Queens at the time) when they were first available. I may have been one of the two 16 year olds turned away, but I'm pretty sure I was older than that at the time, I may have been one of the people who was "too poor" to take the class. I distinctly remember being told that I "wasn't what they were looking for" and that they "wanted the classes to be as beneficial to all attendees as possible." So, given that, my opinions may be a bit biased.

What I learned, clawing myself to where I am (I currently make more than twice what both my parents combined ever made), is that independent of the person, you HAVE to get the out of the situation they are in. Being "poor" or below the poverty line, life is not what you would expect. There is nothing extra, there is not even enough to sustain yourself. Each month, you make decisions of what bills to pay (food, electricity, gas, rent) based on which is most likely to be shut off. You spend money you can't afford on things you don't "need" because you need just something, anything, to make it feel like you are actually alive and not just some "thing", only there to feed on the remains you can come across. Learning about the humanities doesn't change the fact that you're working a minimum wage job 3rd shift and rarely making it to your classes at high school (just often enough to keep from being expelled) just so you don't end up homeless. It doesn't change the fact that you try to cheat and go through the lunch line twice to get two free meals just so you can have something to eat that evening (breakfast? The programs that give kids breakfast ends at middle school).

I escaped from poverty because I am significantly above the average intelligence level and I managed to make the right decision at the right time. For a point of reference, not the last time I talked to my dad, but the time before that, he was letting me know he may not have a phone for a while because the lady's cell phone plan he was on had passed away almost a year ago, and now that it was up for renewal and she was dead, he likely would not be able to put it in his name. I was paying someone I knew $30 a month to sleep in a sleeping bag in their closet when I joined the Army (shipped out January of 2000). I blew the ASVAB out of the water and had my choice of MOSes with all sorts of bonuses as well. But none of that mattered. What mattered was that I was removed from the environment I was in. I was able to see how other people lived while being provided for and then having some extra money on top. When my enlistment was over, I moved on and have done great things and I am now in a wonderful place in life now. But I'm unique in that aspect. A large number of people I served with would not be able to once they were discharged and I hope most of them stay in, because it's a better life for them.

Just as having middle class or better contacts, friends, network and confidants can help you maintain or better your station, being poor and having poor contacts, friends, network and confidants will help you maintain or lose ground. If everyone you know is working for minimum wage, you don't ask where a good place to work is expecting good work, you're expecting somewhere that will actually give you full-time hours, or enough to barely sustain yourself.

Downvote me, rail against me, disagree, defend the article all you want to, but the article is full of as much hope and potential as the government programs that are available to help the poor go to college, all the way up to covering the entirety of their tuition. It sounds like such a great idea, but the reality is that fully covered tuition means jack shit when they are working 70-80 hours a week just to make rent and keep the lights on. It's feel-good drivel by people who never truly understood (and never will understand) what it's like to be at the poverty level or below.

Re:Why do you think people are poor? by vacri on Friday June 22, 2012 @06:32AM (#4146182)
I don't think you're as much at odds with the author as you claim. What I read in the article was him trying to teach a different way of looking at things, a new angle, which is what I read you got out of your enlistment.
Re:Why do you think people are poor? by coob on Friday June 22, 2012 @08:28AM (#4146463)
Yes, this quote from the reply jumped out at me: "What mattered was that I was removed from the environment I was in."

The author is saying the same thing, though perhaps more to do with mental models than physicality.

Re:Why do you think people are poor? by ismarc on Friday June 22, 2012 @11:46AM (#4147253)
I'm not saying it didn't have a positive effect on the people who were able to participate. What I'm saying is that it showed a positive impact for a carefully chosen group of people who met a very narrowly defined set of characteristics. There's nothing in the way it was done that provides any specific insights into people at or below the poverty level, what keeps them there or what can be done to provide help improving their situation. All it served to do was to highlight that smart people in a bad situation want to learn and are improved for having learned, the same as smart people in a not-bad situation. I called it a "feel good" piece because the only meaningful conclusion it reaches (because the narrow selection constraints prevented it from being broadly applicable) is that poor people are people, too and look how great it is we helped some.
Re:Why do you think people are poor? by zokiboy on Friday June 22, 2012 @05:00AM (#4146019)
Success of this program can be explained by the social connections made during the course - teachers were all having better quality of life - also students were shown different way of life through the lectures. If teachers were good as it seems they have backed their lessons with real life stories. In a way, the daily lessons were their out of the situation they were in.
Re:Why do you think people are poor? by Retric on Friday June 22, 2012 @08:38AM (#4146498)
The problem with poverty in the US is not 'no money' the problem is not knowing how to live without it. If you have math and problem solving skills you can avoid a lot of huge money sinks everywhere from the grocery store to transportation etc. You can decide to keep your apartment cold enough that your neighbors help heat it. But, when your desperate the idea that you will suffer now to get ahead becomes unacceptable, anything to feel better now because the future is not something you want to think about.

PS: Mental illness runs in my family so I have plenty of poor relatives, and a few rich ones. It's not hard to find two people that make about the same amount of money living vastly different lives. Just compare grad students with other people living on what they make.

Re:Why do you think people are poor? by hapless on Friday June 22, 2012 @12:22PM (#4147435)
Graduate students are typically well above the poverty line.

Graduate student stipends run from $15,000 to as much as $40,000 (for 20 hours of work!) The median wage in America is around $26,000. Many graduate students make more money than the average worker.

This is a perfect example of how out of touch we, the professional class, are. Most of us have no idea how little capital (social, financial, and otherwise) the working poor have at hand.

Graduate student pay: http://www.cas.usf.edu/business-services/data/osu-survey.pdf

Median wage statistics from the SSA: http://www.ssa.gov/cgi-bin/netcomp.cgi?year=2010

Re:Why do you think people are poor? by Retric on Friday June 22, 2012 @01:15PM (#4147665)
Many graduate students don't have a stipend. So, the poverty line in the US is ~12,000$ per year. But, I have know graduate students to live comfortably on as little as 9,000$. Granted, they often had a lot of social capital and some family connections. However, just knowing they had a ticket out often made living in a van or whatever acceptable.

But, I can also point out a friend who graduated from collage in 2002 without debt working at Denny's for 9$ an hour at who also supported his wife and 2 children. (He did get a 13$ / hour internship his senior year, but it was only 20 hours a week so he kept the Denny's job.) What's important is he knew it was no sustainable, but he saw a light at the end of a tunnel that made 80-90 hour weeks acceptable in the short term.

PS: While poor is often transitory, poor and uneducated, hopeless, addicted, and desperate is rarely transitory.

Re:Why do you think people are poor? by eli_gottlieb on Friday June 22, 2012 @04:27PM (#4148579)
I've never heard of a $40,000/year grad-student stipend. The median stipend, AFAIK, is $20k/year for about 50 hours/week of work (when you actually factor in teaching, research, everything beyond the "student's" curricular responsibilities).
Re:Why do you think people are poor? by eli_gottlieb on Friday June 22, 2012 @04:25PM (#4148564)
Fuck, I grew up upper-middle class and I agree with you wholeheartedly. What good was the course to the woman who got fired from her fast-food job for trying to unionize (which is blatantly illegal but happens all the time)?

What would have been good for her? 1) A liveable wage. 2) A society that doesn't fuck her over for wanting a liveable wage. 3) A society that doesn't fuck her over for trying to get a liveable wage by unionizing.

Re:Why do you think people are poor? by mnl on Friday June 22, 2012 @09:25AM (#4146662)
I love you man. You speak the truth, some people won't be able to get it, because it's against their DNA. I'm growing sick of this herd of pompous self-satisfied kids pretending to understand everything without actually listening and helping anybody but themselves.
Re:Why do you think people are poor? by soc88 on Friday June 22, 2012 @10:21AM (#4146834)
Isn't this exactly what the article said?

> I escaped from poverty because I am significantly above the average intelligence level and I managed to make the right decision at the right time.

LOL. Dunning-Kruger comes to mind.

Re:Why do you think people are poor? by dedward on Friday June 22, 2012 @11:21AM (#4147131)
To be honest I read Rich Dad/Poor Dad, stuck with cash because I was too lazy to manage a portfolio (which worked out well stress-wise) and didn't bow to pressure to borrow for cars and houses when my peers were because I'm stubborn and don't like debt- it's looking back that I can put it into advice.