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Re:Physics is unreasonably good at creating new math by selectodude on Wednesday September 04, 2024 @11:47AM (#41447157)
To some extent, observation has taken a back seat because we're at the point in our physics journey where we pontificate about things that are too small or too dark and far away to see. We simply can't observe this stuff anymore.
Re:Physics is unreasonably good at creating new math by LeifCarrotson on Wednesday September 04, 2024 @11:54AM (#41447238)
Furthermore, we might not be able to observe it but we can observe simulations of it.

If it was not possible to simulate, I think we'd be less invested in the math and physics of it.

Re:Physics is unreasonably good at creating new math by TheRealPomax on Wednesday September 04, 2024 @12:22PM (#41447504)
Furthermore, even if you can write down the math, it might not even be solvable (sometimes provably so) and simulations (or more accurately, numerical analysis and the finite element method) are our only option.
Re:Physics is unreasonably good at creating new math by dizzant on Wednesday September 04, 2024 @12:44PM (#41447796)
This is an interesting take, the article touches on it too.

> “Physicists are much less concerned than mathematicians about rigorous proofs,” says Timothy Gowers, a mathematician at the Collège de France and a Fields Medal winner. Sometimes, he says, that “allows physicists to explore mathematical terrain more quickly than mathematicians.”

GP is right that the currently observed physical laws go far beyond our ability to observe them in reality because of the cost of observations. International effort over decades is required to create facilities capable of making helpful new observations: think of LHC, LIGO, James Webb, etc.

On the other hand, once the facilities are built and ground-breaking observations appear, we suddenly have a debt of theoretical and simulated exploration to understand all their implications. The low cost of computation greatly extends the value we can take from every truly new observation of reality.

In order to observe something new, we must be able differentiate it from something already understood. It seems like the physics and math communities are currently in a season of increasing our understanding of the existing models well enough to motivate trying to break them.

Re:Physics is unreasonably good at creating new math by glitchc on Wednesday September 04, 2024 @12:26PM (#41447552)
Like the atom was in the 18th century? Electrons and protons in the 19th? Quarks in the 20th?
Re:Physics is unreasonably good at creating new math by l33t7332273 on Wednesday September 04, 2024 @01:20PM (#41448203)
I’m struggling to see your point. My interpretation is that in each of those times, we used some math to talk about things we couldn’t observe until we were able to make experiments to observe them.

Are you saying that one day we will be able to devise experiments to observe these things?

Re:Physics is unreasonably good at creating new math by glitchc on Wednesday September 04, 2024 @03:03PM (#41449349)
Short answer: Yes, and new instruments to make those measurements possible. That's how physics has always progressed. Why would this point in time be suddenly different from the past 400 years? Because we can't see a clear path forward? That's always been the case. Insight and ingenuity of individuals is what gets us through it every time.
Re:Physics is unreasonably good at creating new math by bluGill on Wednesday September 04, 2024 @04:35PM (#41450486)
> Why would this point in time be suddenly different from the past 400 years?

Back in the late 1800s physicists thought they were done, other than adding a few more decimals to the values of fundamental constants. There were a few "small areas" where things didn't make sense, but they "would figure them out". One of those small areas turned out to be relativity, and the other quantum mechanics. There are some known areas where we still don't know what is going on, but a lot of physics is adding more decimals to constants (finding fundamental particles were we expect them for example)

The real question - that we cannot answer - are the things we don't understand small things we will figure out, or major things that will again turn our understanding of the universe upside down. Your guess is as good as mine.

Re:Physics is unreasonably good at creating new math by waveBidder on Wednesday September 04, 2024 @06:08PM (#41451386)
Because the tools we need to measure differences between the proposed models are more than the current total economic output. We'll need several generations before its feasible.
Re:Physics is unreasonably good at creating new math by elashri on Wednesday September 04, 2024 @01:27PM (#41448274)
> Are you saying that one day we will be able to devise experiments to observe these things?

The problem is that we might be on an exponential scale. So instead of decades it could be centuries assuming the humanity survives and keep develop new technologies and tools.

Re:Physics is unreasonably good at creating new math by janalsncm on Wednesday September 04, 2024 @01:27PM (#41448277)
I don’t agree with this. I think there are definitely people like Michio Kaku who have books to sell who spend their time pontificating. People just think that physics looks like pontificating because that’s what it looks like on TV.

But there are also active researchers doing real research. Physics postdocs aren’t just sitting around in a circle making up stories about what the universe is like.

Re:Physics is unreasonably good at creating new math by alickz on Wednesday September 04, 2024 @01:36PM (#41448361)
please forgive my ignorance, has there been notable progress in the field of physics in the last decade? noteworthy breakthroughs i mean

i ask out of layman curiosity

Re:Physics is unreasonably good at creating new math by Misdicorl on Wednesday September 04, 2024 @02:07PM (#41448680)
The past decade is a difficult framing to ask the question in. Notable breakthrough results are usually understood in hindsight and a decade just isn't a lot of time for that context and understanding to develop. Science also doesn't necessarily develop in this way with consistent progress every X timespan. Usually you get lots and lots of breakthroughs all at once as an important paradigm is shattered and a new one is installed. Then observations with tiny differences slowly pile up and a very blurry/messy picture of the problems with the new paradigm takes shape. But none of those things feels like a breakthrough, especially to a layman.

That said: I'll submit the first detection of gravitational waves as two black holes merged together in 2020 as meeting the bar of "notable breakthrough in the last decade".

Re:Physics is unreasonably good at creating new math by ricksunny on Wednesday September 04, 2024 @03:47PM (#41449905)
>first detection of gravitational waves as two black holes merged together in 2020 a

2015. (Your point is otherwise taken).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_observation_of_gravitati...

Re:Physics is unreasonably good at creating new math by janalsncm on Wednesday September 04, 2024 @01:41PM (#41448414)
No worries. I’m (mostly) a layman too, I just happened to have watched this video recently:

https://youtu.be/d_o4k0eLoMI

Maybe a more direct answer to your question would be the discovery of the tetraneutron.

Re:Physics is unreasonably good at creating new math by hughesjj on Wednesday September 04, 2024 @02:04PM (#41448663)
Absolutely, they're still handing out nobels after all.

Personally I think the ER=EPR conjecture and the complexity/action duality hypothesis are incredibly interesting. Technically ER=EPR was formulated in 2000s (maybe 90s?) and CA-duality is approaching if not just past 10 years old, but the thing about asking for breakthroughs is that they take a while to percolate. Ex Hawking radiation wasn't formulated until, like, 50-70 years after the "basis" (schwarzshild, Schrodinger) was formed.

There's also been a ton of productive research integrsting computer science and physics lately ( on hn last week: https://arxiv.org/abs/2403.16850 and 2022 novel prize; https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-universe-is-n...)

Also JWST just keeps on giving, and gravitational waves were only confirmed in 2017. If you extend a bit further higgs was in the 2010s

So, in summary, in the late 10 years - we've shown a break in our intuition of physics (nonloca-realness, that 2022 paper) - proposed some novel yet elegant theories (CA-duality, and I'd hope you'd begrudge me er=EPR) - confirmed some insane provings to the underlying reality (gravitational waves)

If those aren't noteworthy, I'd ask what you consider noteworthy any why you consider it noteworthy

Re:Physics is unreasonably good at creating new math by naasking on Wednesday September 04, 2024 @05:21PM (#41450979)
The Higgs boson was predicted in 1964. Gravitational waves were predicted in 1916. Bell's theorem was published in 1964. Basically every recent discovery in physics has been observations confirming old predictions and refuting the endless zoo of poorly motivated, imaginary particles that seems to be standard practice these days.

There have been almost no truly significant, novel predictions that have a hope in hell of panning out in like, 40 years or more. The only mildly interesting, novel idea in physics has been quantum computing, and even that was first published in 1980.

> So, in summary, in the late 10 years - we've shown a break in our intuition of physics (nonloca-realness, that 2022 paper)

This paper showed no such thing, it has the same superdeterminism loophole as every other paper attempting to refute local realism.

Physics is stuck in a local QM-GR minimum, and some truly novel ideas are needed to kickstart things again. Oppenheim's postquantum gravity is the first truly novel idea I've seen in awhile.

I also agree that JWST is giving us great data, some of which has placed LCDM on the ropes, but astrophysicists are hard at work adding epicycles to keep it alive.

Re:Physics is unreasonably good at creating new math by janalsncm on Wednesday September 04, 2024 @09:13PM (#41452533)
Yes, the Higgs boson is not a new prediction but that doesn’t mean discovering it wasn’t a major breakthrough. There are other theories besides the Standard Model which don’t contain Higgs particles and were ruled out when it was discovered.
Re:Physics is unreasonably good at creating new math by dboreham on Wednesday September 04, 2024 @11:29PM (#41453196)
As Frank Yang predicted in 1980 , "the party's over".
Re:Physics is unreasonably good at creating new math by hughesjj on Thursday September 05, 2024 @01:50AM (#41453903)
You don't consider ER=EPR as novel? Or CA-duality? Agreed that Post-quantum gravity is really cool and "fresh"

Higgs/Bell/GW were experimental results, I was indeed trying to show that there's a huge lag between prediction and observation.

Imo the paradigm shift that we're slowly undergoing is thinking about physics from a information theoretic perspective instead of a kinematics one. I'd argue that's even more fundamental of a change than Newtonian physics to early GR & QM.

Re:Physics is unreasonably good at creating new math by hughesjj on Thursday September 05, 2024 @06:07AM (#41455191)
Eh, I suppose that was more the Field era
Re:Physics is unreasonably good at creating new math by naasking on Thursday September 05, 2024 @11:15AM (#41457421)
They might be novel mathematical constructs but seemingly have no bearing on our universe. ER=EPR doesn't really solve anything because GR remains fundamentally incompatible with QM's linearity. That's the problem that needs to be solved. The core idea of ER=EPR wasn't even particularly novel, as Hadley effectively did something very similar back in 1997 [1].

CA-duality is again mathematically interesting, but physically dubious because it's based on anti-de Sitter space, which does not describe our universe.

Information theoretical formulations of QM are mildly interesting, but I don't think they will be revolutionary, and I don't think they are tackling the core problem, which is QM's linearity where we classically observe a non-linear universe.

[1] https://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/9706018

Re:Physics is unreasonably good at creating new math by seanhunter on Thursday September 05, 2024 @06:51AM (#41455386)
Experimental validation of a major theory is major physics.

You can't rhetorically gloss over something as important as experimentally validating a 1964 prediction as though it doesn't matter or didn't happen.

If your contention is that a validation of something we already suspected to be true doesn't shatter/shift our paradigm, then how often would you expect that to happen? I would expect it a lot in small ways (so almost every person working in some niche area has probably had some "niche breakthrough" happen in their area that has really changed things) but not a lot in really fundamental overarching ways which for physics I think you could reasonably say has happened about 4 or 5 times in the last 400 years maybe idk: Newton, GR/SR/ quantum mechanics and then whichever ones you want to count out of Maxwell's equations and whatnot.

So to expect something like that every decade is not realistic.

Re:Physics is unreasonably good at creating new math by naasking on Thursday September 05, 2024 @11:01AM (#41457288)
> You can't rhetorically gloss over something as important as experimentally validating a 1964 prediction as though it doesn't matter or didn't happen.

I'm not, I'm pointing out that theoretical progress has stagnated. Experimentalists are doing great.

> So to expect something like that every decade is not realistic.

I'm not expecting it every decade, but we've had 4 decades of recycling the same ideas using the same failed approaches to try to patch gaps in existing theory using bogus arguments, which ends up funding poorly motivated experiments that then find nothing. I think Sabine Hossenfelder elaborated the problems here in excellent detail (see "Lost in Math").

Re:Physics is unreasonably good at creating new math by trashtester on Thursday September 05, 2024 @11:12AM (#41457403)
Smart theoretical physicists of today should bring their Lie-group algebras and help build better neural nets, and then use those nets to make new discoveries in Physics.
Re:Physics is unreasonably good at creating new math by TheOtherHobbes on Thursday September 05, 2024 @11:11AM (#41457393)
I think those qualify more as interesting suggestions and experimental confirmations than as breakthroughs.

I suspect "breakthrough" is supposed to mean "huge definitive paradigm shift." We haven't had many of those in all of history, and we certainly haven't had one in the last decade.

Everyone is still very, very confused about quantum fundamentals. Non-local realness is really a Bohmian idea, and that's certainly not new. Universe-as-information is new but there's a huge gap between that and the Standard Model.

And so on. None of these problems are settled in the way that GR and QM settled various issues.

You may say that's too high a bar and things are moving. But there's been more of a history of missteps (string theory, supersymmetry, so far at least) that were sold as potential breakthroughs than genuinely transformative insights.

Re:Physics is unreasonably good at creating new math by FuriouslyAdrift on Wednesday September 04, 2024 @02:46PM (#41449106)
The confirmation of the Higgs boson is pretty huge...
Re:Physics is unreasonably good at creating new math by janalsncm on Wednesday September 04, 2024 @09:53PM (#41452748)
I should also add, this page has a section for previously unsolved physics problems that were solved in the past 30 years:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unsolved_problems_in...

Re:Physics is unreasonably good at creating new math by seanhunter on Thursday September 05, 2024 @06:49AM (#41455374)
Experimental validation of the Higgs Boson (2012 but close enough) [1]

Direct observation of gravitational waves (2015)[2]

exoplanets going from theoretically quite likely to being actually observable things that we find all over the place [3]

...would seem to be examples of very notable results during my lifetime. This is barely scratching the surface and I'm not a physicist but those seem very important to me and likely to stand the test of time and be thought of as important in the future.

Non-breakthroughs:

These guys who are responsible for the goddam blue leds that on every second device these days always keep me from getting a decent dark nights sleep when travelling until I hunt them all down in the hotel room I'm in or whatever and cover them up.[4]

[1] https://www.nobelprize.org/prizes/physics/2013/summary/

[2] https://www.nobelprize.org/prizes/physics/2017/summary/

[3] https://www.nobelprize.org/prizes/physics/2019/summary/

[4] https://www.nobelprize.org/prizes/physics/2014/summary/

Re:Physics is unreasonably good at creating new math by dxbydt on Wednesday September 04, 2024 @02:35PM (#41448980)
> pontificate about things that are too small or too dark and far away to see

I was bitten by this last week. I am enrolled in an aops physics course, titled Mechanics. So the last time I took any Mechanics was 40 years ago as a high school student in India. Most of the curriculum then was about stuff banging into each other aka collisions, & asking what happens to the result. Like some golf ball rolls down an inclined plane at some angle theta & hits a identical stationary ball & the objects stick together & we're supposed to compute where they end up. I was curious what American students learn, so I enrolled in this aops course.

Last week's assignment asks me - under which scenario will conservation of momentum make an accurate prediction. The 3 scenarios are - truck collides with car, eagle comes to rest at perch after flying from far away, and two galaxies colliding into each other to form a third megagalaxy.

I naturally picked truck & car - so aops knocks off 2 points for the wrong answer! Apparently if a truck collides with a car there will be so much thermal energy produced by the friction of the road, any prediction you make about the final velocity of the car assuming conservation of momentum will be bogus.

So then I pick eagle coming to rest - aops knocks off 2 more points for the wrong answer! Apparently when eagle comes to land, it will open its giant wings to create air resistance, so momentum won't be conserved.

Ok so that leaves the 2 galaxies. I pick that & get my correct answer, a pathetic score of 3/7. I'm left wondering how do we even know this is correct. Galaxies are too far away to observe. How is one supposed to compute the mass of 2 separate galaxies, & then find their moving velocities accurately, & then find the final velocity of the combined galaxy, & thus confirm momentum was conserved ? Seems very far fetched. I would rather go with the car & truck.

Re:Physics is unreasonably good at creating new math by lilyball on Wednesday September 04, 2024 @04:01PM (#41450087)
With the car & truck, and with the eagle, a lot of energy is lost into the environment. With two galaxies colliding, there is no environment to speak of. They're in space, and space is as close to a perfect vacuum as one might reasonably imagine. So the only real escape for energy is light, but I don't think there's any reason to believe colliding galaxies will produce absurd amounts of excess light (if it did we'd have observed it). Therefore the energy of the collision is preserved within the system, and so conservation of momentum will produce an accurate prediction.
Re:Physics is unreasonably good at creating new math by dxbydt on Wednesday September 04, 2024 @04:42PM (#41450565)
I have zero issues with your logical reasoning - its the same reasoning aops gives. I'm simply asking - how do you know for sure that this actually happens in practice ? Like, have we observed such a thing ? I'm genuinely curious, no snark.

If all we have is reasoning, with zero observation, then its equivalent to what JFK says in Oliver Stone's picture - "Theoretical physics can prove that an elephant can hang from a cliff with its tail tied to a daisy."

Re:Physics is unreasonably good at creating new math by lilyball on Wednesday September 04, 2024 @05:40PM (#41451167)
I have no idea if we've observed it. Galaxy collisions take a very long time, I'm not sure how we'd ever be in a position to observe both the starting state and result.

That said, the point of the law of conservation of momentum is we don't need to observe it to know that it happens. Momentum is conserved, that's a fact. So the question becomes, what is it that makes this law not produce a good prediction about a scenario? And the answer is that when the scenario involves other factors that can take kinetic energy away from the system. In the car & truck scenario, we have friction with the road as a pretty huge factor, that removes a lot of energy. Even without a collision, friction is why a car needs to constantly burn fuel in order to keep moving at the same speed. So it should be no surprise that a car & truck collision will lose a ton of energy to friction. In the eagle landing scenario, that's not even a simple collision between the eagle and the branch, the eagle uses its wings to slow down, and the branch is fixed to a tree and absorbs the remaining energy. An eagle landing on a branch is an eagle that comes to rest on the branch, it doesn't just not conserve momentum it gets rid of all of it. But in the colliding galaxies scenario, there's no surface to have friction with, there's no wings beating against air, there's no tree anchoring one of the objects in place, nothing to absorb any energy, no environment to dissipate energy in. Without anything to get rid of kinetic energy, conservation of momentum will predict the results.

Re:Physics is unreasonably good at creating new math by saagarjha on Wednesday September 04, 2024 @11:56PM (#41453323)
That is, until gravitation waves carry away the energy :)
Re:Physics is unreasonably good at creating new math by trashtester on Thursday September 05, 2024 @11:28AM (#41457530)
It doesn't matter much if they carry away energy, though the waves also carry away some momentum, I suppose, unless they're symmetric on both sides.
Re:Physics is unreasonably good at creating new math by ninetyninenine on Monday September 09, 2024 @11:02AM (#41489164)
The question is testing if your reasoning is in line with what you were taught. It is not questioning your ability to validate your reasoning experimentally.

I came to the same conclusion as the replier almost immediately as I was reading the question. It was obvious to me. But I do agree it’s a bad question as it relies on a lot of assumptions. Maybe the question is just testing if your ability to make reasonable estimates assumptions.

Re:Physics is unreasonably good at creating new math by saagarjha on Wednesday September 04, 2024 @11:56PM (#41453325)
TIL AoPS has physics classes now
Re:Physics is unreasonably good at creating new math by dxbydt on Thursday September 05, 2024 @08:24AM (#41455926)
i am essentially a rayiner on steroids, in that i believe america has absolutely nothing meaningful to offer to the world at large other than aops and rsm. its such an extraordinary institution. large number of international signups - so tons of indian and chinese kids burning the midnight oil solving woot alongside their american compatriots. just an amazing, spectacular creation all around. if the nobel committee had any brains, rusczyk would have gotten atleast a peace prize by now.
Re:Physics is unreasonably good at creating new math by saagarjha on Friday September 06, 2024 @03:26AM (#41463807)
"I am essentially a rayiner on steroids" has to be the most unhinged thing I have read on this site today lmao
Re:Physics is unreasonably good at creating new math by trashtester on Thursday September 05, 2024 @11:26AM (#41457508)
> conservation of momentum make an accurate prediction.

Accurate prediction of what?

If it's the velocity and location in the end state, the best answer is the eagle (once it comes to rest). The momentum of Earth is so huge that the eagle will end up precisely on the perch (if we disregard the inability of a living bird to be completely still)

For the cars, the exact end state depends on many other factors, as you say.

Finally, for the colliding galaxies, there may be some uncertainty about how dark matter and dark energy (or their absence) affect galaxy collisions. This may be beyond the understanding of whoever wrote the test, though.

Re:Physics is unreasonably good at creating new math by DarkNova6 on Thursday September 05, 2024 @04:04AM (#41454578)
You still have to do experiments and verify that what you did has ground.