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Re:Brazil Court votes unanimously to uphold X ban. Users swi... by gruez on Monday September 02, 2024 @04:33PM (#41428570)
>Twitter is not a fundamental right, as access to users isn't a right to a company.

What about the rights of people who want to use twitter? Would you use the same characterization for Chinese censorship (ie. "The New York Times is not an fundamental right, as access to users isn't a right to [The New York Times Company]")?

Re:Brazil Court votes unanimously to uphold X ban. Users swi... by dangus on Monday September 02, 2024 @04:53PM (#41428723)
This question isn’t relevant to this situation because Musk’s Twitter has already proven to not have any moral standing on this question.

Musk is willing to censor for Turkey but not for Brazil. It’s a massive double standard. His company has major shareholders who are part of the Saudi monarchy. Twitter under Musk isn’t a company that can make any honest claim to care about democratic free speech.

He’s already suspended left-wing and Musk-critical journalists and activists without a specific TOS violation or explanation while not doing the same for anyone that aligns with his ideology.

He doesn’t have kind of the moral high ground that other companies do on these matters, e.g., the kind that Google had when they exited China.

I also think that using china’s style of censorship as an analogy to other styles of censorship is also potentially a flawed exercise. I would argue that things like Germany’s censorship of Nazi ideology is a positive for human rights and democracy. Even the USA’s prohibition of the government’s speech on the topic of religion and political speech is technically a form of censorship - self-censorship, essentially.

I could imagine a hypothetical democratic government where speech is generally free but anti-democratic ideology is not tolerated, since that speech oversteps the boundaries of free speech and crosses into a territory of speech that harms others.

In other words, a society that overcomes the paradox of tolerance.

For example, Trump has spoken of elimination of term limits, becoming a dictator for a day, and has generally advocated for political violence. Because of his rhetoric there are a large percentage of people in the USA who would end democracy entirely if it meant that their dear leader Trump was president for life rather than a member of the opposition party. In the USA the first amendment protects him, but I would argue that it should not - that a democracy that intends to survive the constant onslaught of opportunistic authoritarians should criminalize anti-democratic activity and speech.

(I am not specifically commenting on Brazil’s orders to censor people on the Twitter platform because I am not equipped with that context. I don’t know specifically who those people are, what those people said, said and whether that court order was sensible. I merely speak in philosophical hypotheticals here - and at the end of the day whether my hypotheticals are “right” or “wrong” is irrelevant in the context of Elon’s asymmetrical application of “free speech”)

Re:Brazil Court votes unanimously to uphold X ban. Users swi... by KerrAvon on Monday September 02, 2024 @04:52PM (#41428715)
You don't have the right to patronize a restaurant that gets shut down for health code violations after it's shut down. There's no difference in principle here. Banning Twitter itself for failing to comply with the law isn't a free speech issue.

Now, part of the order makes it illegal to use VPN to access Twitter, which is an actual free speech issue, if you'd care to argue on those grounds.

Re:Brazil Court votes unanimously to uphold X ban. Users swi... by gruez on Monday September 02, 2024 @04:56PM (#41428743)
>There's no difference in principle here. Banning Twitter itself for failing to comply with the law isn't a free speech issue.

All the websites China bans are also ostensibly for "failing to comply with the law". Would you say those bans are also "not a free speech issue"?

Re:Brazil Court votes unanimously to uphold X ban. Users swi... by nickff on Monday September 02, 2024 @04:55PM (#41428739)
Isn’t the use of a VPN analogous to using a back door (alley entrance) to visit the condemned restaurant? What difference would there be in your analogy?
Re:Brazil Court votes unanimously to uphold X ban. Users swi... by Qem on Monday September 02, 2024 @10:24PM (#41430675)
> Now, part of the order makes it illegal to use VPN to access Twitter, which is an actual free speech issue, if you'd care to argue on those grounds.

This part was later struck down by the court.

Re:Brazil Court votes unanimously to uphold X ban. Users swi... by mensetmanusman on Monday September 02, 2024 @04:38PM (#41428612)
Access to the NYT in China or X in Brazil could destabilize their societies. One could argue that their current development status necessitates authoritarianism until a transitional event happens (which took the west many centuries).
Re:Brazil Court votes unanimously to uphold X ban. Users swi... by prepend on Monday September 02, 2024 @04:41PM (#41428634)
Free speech destabilizes society. It’s a suitable price to pay, I think.

The goal is absolute harmony. Especially at the expense of rights.

Re:Brazil Court votes unanimously to uphold X ban. Users swi... by tirant on Monday September 02, 2024 @04:57PM (#41428751)
That might be your goal. But that does not mean it needs to be everyone else’s goals.

For me, freedom of speech is part of what brings societies forward, and that includes deep changes which obviously means unstable societies at some point.

Humans would be stuck in Stone Age if we would have had only stable societies.

Re:Brazil Court votes unanimously to uphold X ban. Users swi... by prepend on Monday September 02, 2024 @10:29PM (#41430700)
Ha, sorry autocorrect changed my “the goal isn’t” to “the goal is.”

I agree with you and mistyped. I really need to proof my comments better.

I think the goal is not harmony but value and beauty.

Re:Brazil Court votes unanimously to uphold X ban. Users swi... by mensetmanusman on Monday September 02, 2024 @04:44PM (#41428661)
If western history is the route, many millions die on the road to free speech. Maybe fewer die if it’s more gradual in the transition?
Re:Brazil Court votes unanimously to uphold X ban. Users swi... by Qem on Monday September 02, 2024 @10:23PM (#41430658)
> What about the rights of people who want to use twitter?

Interoperability should cover this. If the platform is barred from doing business in a given country, users should be able to download all their data and move it to another platform of their choice. People must not be made hostages of the platforms.