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Re:You Are Not Dumb, You Just Lack the Prerequisites by ninetyninenine on Saturday August 24, 2024 @12:19PM (#41339273)
No, this isn’t universally true. Your intelligence does affect your ability to learn math. It is not always just a lack of prerequisites.
Re:You Are Not Dumb, You Just Lack the Prerequisites by JustinSkycak on Saturday August 24, 2024 @12:22PM (#41339300)
Sure, there is such a thing as mathematical talent. However, few people actually reach their full mathematical potential because they get knocked off course early on by factors such as missing foundations, ineffective practice habits, inability or unwillingness to engage in additional practice, or lack of motivation. Basically, your mathematical potential has a limit, but it's likely higher than you think.
Re:You Are Not Dumb, You Just Lack the Prerequisites by Barrin92 on Saturday August 24, 2024 @12:34PM (#41339396)
If you want to compete with Terence Tao, maybe. But everyone with a functioning brain can get to a high level of proficiency, I know because I've taught people who were convinced math is an alien language and they lack the math gene.

It's the same with any skill, lots of people are convinced they can't make music, or learn Mandarin or what have you. 99% of it is preconceived notions that they don't belong into a certain club and because we keep telling people that if something's hard for you, you're untalented and you should focus on something else. But it's just effort, even if it's more effort for some in the beginning, there's no magic in any of it.

Re:You Are Not Dumb, You Just Lack the Prerequisites by ninetyninenine on Saturday August 24, 2024 @12:43PM (#41339466)
Sure but it absolutely matters heavily if not just as much prereqs.

I met a girl who struggled with trig and another guy who basically trivially studied the subject and aced it. IQ matters a lot.

We are talking in circles. Both matter but I’m saying with my example above that even at basic math, both still matter. It’s not some thing where iq only matters for phd level math

Re:You Are Not Dumb, You Just Lack the Prerequisites by hnfong on Sunday August 25, 2024 @10:52AM (#41347713)
"Just effort" is a curious way to put it.

Even for talented people, learning a skill to a high level takes years.

Mere mortals don't really have that many years of free time. Choosing a path that one seems talented at is usually the right path.

It's one thing for the person to decide they want to take the risk knowing that they might not have the talent to learn the skill in a "reasonable" time, but it's another to thing to pretend there's no difference and cheer on a person chasing an improbable dream and waste a persons' life.

To be or not to be. Basically.

So basically the disagreement is to the approach to default to when the future is unclear. Taking the right action requires a degree of foresight that people generally don't have. (I'm not sure everyone has the same skill to intuit the future, but I'll grant you that it's just effort to learn it, even if it requires significantly more effort for some...)

Re:You Are Not Dumb, You Just Lack the Prerequisites by paretoer on Sunday August 25, 2024 @03:37PM (#41350551)
I suspect this is a feature of the modern world.

I have heard of a few philosophers of their day years back being considered "the most learned man in Europe". Not the smartest, but the most learned. Learned implies agency, smart implies something innate.

With the advent of IQ tests and the computer you get the brain as computer metaphor gone much too far.

Terence Tao has a 64 core threadripper, so if you are just using a 4 core i5 don't even bother.

Then of course if you believe an i5 is basically worthless it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy even though for most tasks both would be plenty fast enough.

Re:You Are Not Dumb, You Just Lack the Prerequisites by anthonypasq on Monday August 26, 2024 @10:12AM (#41357308)
many people will never be able to dunk a basketball no matter how hard they train. Some people will be able to dunk at age 14 without doing any training.

We accepts these types of basic inequalities when it comes to physical ability without blinking an eye, yet if you apply the exact same logic to the brain (a physical organ) people go into hysterics.

Most people could probably get a lot closer to dunking than they think they are capable of, but theres a very obvious hard limit.

Re:You Are Not Dumb, You Just Lack the Prerequisites by quacked on Saturday August 24, 2024 @11:39PM (#41344171)
A lot of people on HN just don't really know any stupid people. There are many adults in the US who struggle to work a grocery store self-checkout machine or remember a string of numbers longer than 5 or 6 digits. (I'm 70% sure the correct order of magnitude for this group is "millions" and 99% sure it's at least "hundreds of thousands").

Maybe with better nutrition, childhood conditions, and healthcare a good portion of this group could have been promoted into a different group, but the idea that everyone just needs better prereqs and they'd learn math better isn't right. The article itself was written by someone who manages their own website.

Re:You Are Not Dumb, You Just Lack the Prerequisites by zvmaz on Sunday August 25, 2024 @12:13AM (#41344329)
I struggle with the self-checkout machine. I am a simpleton. I bow to your intelligence.
Re:You Are Not Dumb, You Just Lack the Prerequisites by agumonkey on Monday August 26, 2024 @04:03PM (#41361275)
I believe this sort of brain structure is inherited more than nurtured. You can spot differences as early as 4 years old.
Re:You Are Not Dumb, You Just Lack the Prerequisites by sudosysgen on Tuesday August 27, 2024 @01:55PM (#41370605)
It is possible to teach math to this population, I've done it briefly when I was a teacher in an adult education school.

It's significantly slower than for average people and requires a ridiculous amount of effort on the part of the teacher and student, but it's possible.

Due to limited working memory many of these students will make mistake no matter how difficult the material is, and they will be slow at resolving problems, but I've never had a student without serious mental health issues be unable to get to precalculus level, and in the ones I've seen try they've been able to get to university math.

Again, many will always make more mistakes and/or be slow, but the concepts themselves are generally within grasp.

Re:You Are Not Dumb, You Just Lack the Prerequisites by trabant00 on Monday August 26, 2024 @04:21AM (#41355058)
This is not the most popular idea these days but talent differences exist and they make a huge difference in the outcome. In my profession and in my hobbies I've seen plenty of people with 20+ years of experience who are quickly overtaken by a talented newcomer in less than a year. And I've also seen people who put a lot into a field they really have no proclivity towards and they get absolutely nowhere.

I see talent as the base of the pyramid. The limit to how high you can build your pyramid is the talent. There's certainly plenty of people who never reach their full potential for lack of prerequisites, opportunities, resources, etc. But there's a clear difference in how high and how fast different people can build even with equal circumstances.

Re:You Are Not Dumb, You Just Lack the Prerequisites by ninetyninenine on Wednesday August 28, 2024 @12:50PM (#41381483)
What is your profession/hobby if I may ask? Just curious.
Re:You Are Not Dumb, You Just Lack the Prerequisites by trabant00 on Thursday August 29, 2024 @04:01AM (#41388425)
Mediocre software engineer / very good amateur motorcyclist and mediocre bodybuilder. 20+ years of experience in all of them.