But I think the Apple "cult" and the increasing lock in to the ecosystem is party if a negative feedback loop: developers often make apps only for Apple, or make it for Apple first, or just half-ass their Android/Windows versions. So the lock in is encouraged by Apple and amplified by developers. But the while time they are paying for the privilege of the wall garden (and before people get confused again, "walled garden" is just a way of saying "pretty prison", it is not meant to imply you are hanging out at a 5-star all-inclusive resort).
But I agree that an iPod with the click wheel is the pinnacle of human achievement. The iPod Classic was the best device I've ever owned.
Saying statements like this without provide evidence or examples is pointless. E.G., have you read this article, do you disagree with it? https://daringfireball.net/2004/04/spray_on_usability
> But the while time they are paying for the privilege of the wall garden
Again this could use further extrapolation, in vacuum I think we can agree a walled garden is worse for developers than an open platform (for users I'd say that balance is a lot less clear, but if I try to make that argument some folks completely lose it). But we don't live in a vacuum, so I'd say most developers who build for Apple platforms do so because they prefer the toolchain, and that trumps the value of an open platform for them. I used to develop for Apple platforms, and I still think the toolchain is better than anything else I've ever used, and it's not close (I like the debugger integration, the memory tools, and Instruments).
Evidence of an opinion? I don't think you understand how opinions work.
Just rambling here: the navigation paradigms, where the settings are, the animations, cursors, the way the mouse accelerates, the keyboard shortcuts, the icons on windows, maximizing windows, the dock, navigating with Finder creates invisible files directories, the "drag to install" nonsense is one of the dumbest UX paradigms ever (I'm not being facetious).
I hope my random ramblings about things I don't assuages your feeling that I'm being inconsiderate. I'm sure there are people who love everything above and who think its perfect.
Wouldn't this be true if you put anyone in front of an unfamiliar OS?
> Just rambling here: the navigation paradigms, where the settings are, the animations, cursors, the way the mouse accelerates, the keyboard shortcuts, the icons on windows, maximizing windows, the dock, navigating with Finder creates invisible files directories, the "drag to install" nonsense is one of the dumbest UX paradigms ever (I'm not being facetious).
I summarize most of these as "I don't like the feel of it" which is a straightforward matter of opinion, but that's a different statement then what we started with "I don't agree that they write good or intuitive (easiest to use) software, but that's just me." A statement like this would would also mean showing how another platform does it and demonstrating why that's better or more intuitive. But I guess if you had just said "I don't find their software good or intuitive", I wouldn't have bothered asking these questions. But then, per my first comment, I think if you out anyone in front of an unfamiliar OS and asked them to use it, it would literally take years of use before they'd have an opinion that's not biased based on their prior experience. This is why I don't comment much on how Linux or Windows do things, I just don't have the expertise to say whether their approach is better or worse.
One exception is keyboard bindings, because a lot of keyboard bindings come to macOS from Windows especially in the form of cross platform applications, and I've formed the opinion that Windows bindings are worse because of the over reliance on F-keys, which are too far from the homerow and not mmemonic. (This is an example of of what I mean about giving an example, and then a reason I think it's worse).
For the record I appreciate your responses, I'm being super pedantic here and you're putting up with it. I feel like, especially when it comes to Apple on HN, which makes people blood boil, it's so hard to figure what people are even talking about when they make their statements. I really think the model of supporting statements with reasoning makes the statements so much ire useful to read.
Not in the same way, but only since Apple is very popular, so it happens often (and Apple fans like to claim things like "the devices are far superior to competitors" which irks me a little, haha).
Sometimes Apple paradigms are just a little bit different than what I know well, which makes it even harder for me since the similarity can make me operate on autopilot, but my autopilot then steers me wrong. When things are drastically different its just a matter of learning (and probably forgetting, since I don't use Apple quite often enough) the new thing, which I usually find pretty unintuitive.
> I summarize most of these as "I don't like the feel of it"
I'd summarize all of them as "I don't like the feel of it".
> "I don't like the feel of it" which is a straightforward matter of opinion, but that's a different statement then what we started with "I don't agree that they write good or intuitive (easiest to use) software, but that's just me."
I really thought "I don't agree [...] but that's just me" would communicate that it's my straightforward matter of opinion.
> if you had just said "I don't find their software good or intuitive", I wouldn't have bothered asking these questions
You are just rephrasing what I said: "I don't agree that they write good or intuitive (easiest to use) software, but that's just me." is saying the same thing as "I don't find their software good or intuitive". Maybe I should work on my online communication skills.
> I really think the model of supporting statements with reasoning makes the statements so much ire useful to read.
I appreciate this.
On "polarizing" issues (to the HN crowd) like Apple, Rust, Blockchain, etc. I've discovered that supporting statements don't usually accomplish much, other than to bait commenters that want to defend a counterpoint without listening (I probably shouldn't have commented in the first place)
Yeah I'm probably being too pedantic here, but to me "they don't write good or unintuitive software" means they should design their software differently (presuming you assume Apple values these things which I think they do), whereas "I don't find their software good or intuitive" means that you personally found their software difficult to use.
For example, I have over 10000 commits in my dotfiles, like I'm not a typical user, so for me whether I personally find their software good or intuitive isn't something I'd factor in to whether the software is good or intuitive for most users, because I personally am such an outlier from a typical user (which I also assume you, and most HN readers really, also are).
I'm probably an Apple fanboy. I switched to Apple in 2012 after I stopped enjoying the whole "tinkering" part which made running Linux so fun. These days, with the ever increasing lock-in (and price hikes on cloud services) I'd like to get out. Further increased by the fact that Apple doesn't make a small phone (I have relatively small hands). The issue is that I don't really want to deal with Google either. I also don't want to deal with not having the Apple or Google stores on my phone because most of the apps I use (like banking, national IDs, healthcare, tickets for public transportation and others) aren't available outside of those. If I'm on iOS it's still easier to just have the smallest MacBook Air, than to bother getting something else and then setting up synchronisation and so on. But I don't think Apple is "cool" anymore.
Not that I disagree with you completely, they were always "evil" but at least they used to make cool stuff.