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Re:CrowdStrike accepting the PwnieAwards for "most epic fail... by 2OEH8eoCRo0 on Sunday August 11, 2024 @12:46PM (#41217444)
> Is there any path for software engineers to reach this level of accountability and norms of good practice?

There is no reason that software couldn't be treated with the same care and respect. The only reason we don't is because the industry resists that sort of change. They want to move fast and break things while still calling themselves "engineers." Almost none of this resembles engineering.

Re:CrowdStrike accepting the PwnieAwards for "most epic fail... by figassis on Sunday August 11, 2024 @12:59PM (#41217572)
I’m a software engineer, with a degree, and SWE does have the same ethical principles and the same engineering process, from problem definition and requirements a the way to development lifecycle, testing, deployment indigent management, etc. none of it includes sprints and story points.

Suffice it to say most SWEs are not being hired to do actual engineering, bc the industry can’t get over the fact that just because you can update and release SW instantly doesn’t mean you should.

Re:CrowdStrike accepting the PwnieAwards for "most epic fail... by JumpCrisscross on Sunday August 11, 2024 @01:00PM (#41217592)
> SWE does have the same ethical principles and the same engineering process

The lack of certification means this training isn’t reinforced to the degree it is in engineering.

Re:CrowdStrike accepting the PwnieAwards for "most epic fail... by WarOnPrivacy on Sunday August 11, 2024 @01:44PM (#41217923)
Right. If the coding industry mimics the construction industry, we wind up with one position called engineer that assumes most of the liability.

The other 99.99....% of software engineers will get different titles.

All of this ignores the individuals who are most responsible for these catastrophes.

Investors and executives deliver relentless and effective pressure toward practices that maximize their profits - at the expense of all else.

They purposefully create + nurture a single point of failure and are massively rewarded for the harm that causes (while the consequences are suffered by everyone else). Thanks to the pass they reliably get, we get their leadership design degrading every industry it can.

Re:CrowdStrike accepting the PwnieAwards for "most epic fail... by JumpCrisscross on Sunday August 11, 2024 @01:58PM (#41218060)
> If the coding industry mimics the construction industry, we wind up with one position called engineer that assumes most of the liability

If their sign off is required, this could work. The question is whether it’s worth it, and if it is, in which contexts.

Re:CrowdStrike accepting the PwnieAwards for "most epic fail... by WarOnPrivacy on Monday August 12, 2024 @09:54AM (#41224370)
> If their sign off is required, this could work. The question is whether it’s worth it, and if it is, in which contexts.

Civil engineers liability is tied to standards set by gov agencies/depts and industry consortium.

Standards would have to be created in software engineering - along with the associated gov & industry bodies. In civil engineering, those things grew during/from many decades of need.

Re:CrowdStrike accepting the PwnieAwards for "most epic fail... by wizzwizz4 on Sunday August 11, 2024 @12:53PM (#41217518)
> Software engineering, of course, presents itself as another worthy cause, but that is eyewash: if you carefully read its literature and analyse what its devotees actually do, you will discover that software engineering has accepted as its charter "How to program if you cannot.".

— Edsger Wybe Dijkstra, 1988. (EWD1036)

Re:CrowdStrike accepting the PwnieAwards for "most epic fail... by jfengel on Sunday August 11, 2024 @12:58PM (#41217561)
I'm ok with that. I don't want to keep everyone out except just those who happen to have just the right mind set. Programming is about developing software for people, and the more viewpoints are in the room, the better.

Some pieces are more important than others. Those are the bits that need to be carefully regulated, as if they were bridges. But not everything we build has lives on the line.

If that means we don't get to call ourselves "engineers", I'm good with that. We work with bits, not atoms, and we can develop our own new way of handling that.

Re:CrowdStrike accepting the PwnieAwards for "most epic fail... by 2OEH8eoCRo0 on Sunday August 11, 2024 @12:58PM (#41217568)
I prefer to call it "computer programming." If the title is good enough for Ken Thompson or Don Knuth then it's good enough for me.
Re:CrowdStrike accepting the PwnieAwards for "most epic fail... by wizzwizz4 on Sunday August 11, 2024 @01:08PM (#41217648)
> I don't want to keep everyone out except just those who happen to have just the right mind set.

Neither do I. Neither did Dijkstra. EWD1036, “On the cruelty of really teaching computing science”, is about education reform, to enable those who don't "happen to have just the right mind set" to fully participate in actual, effective programming.

Re:CrowdStrike accepting the PwnieAwards for "most epic fail... by WarOnPrivacy on Sunday August 11, 2024 @02:03PM (#41218110)
> If that means we don't get to call ourselves "engineers", I'm good with that.

I suspect this particular title-exaggeration is fueling this particular fire.

Going forward, I believe we need to be aware that software controlled mechanics grew out of two disparate disciplines; it presently lacks the holistic thinking that long-integrated industries do.

Re:CrowdStrike accepting the PwnieAwards for "most epic fail... by throwaheyy on Sunday August 11, 2024 @11:33PM (#41220978)
To be fair, software and technology is so magically transformative that even with warranty disclaimers like “this software comes with no warranty, and we limit our liability to the purchase price”, every company in the world still lines up to buy it. Because for them it’s effectively magic, that they cannot replicate themselves.

No individual software developer, nor corporation, is foolish enough to claim their software is free of bugs, that’s why they put the risk on the customer and the customer still signs on the dotted line and accepts the risks anyway. After all, it’s still way more profitable to have the potentially-faulty software than needing an army of clerks with pen and paper instead.

Most software has to be this way or it would be exorbitantly expensive. That’s the bargain between software developers and the companies that buy the software. Customer accepts the risks and gets to pocket the large profits that the software brings (because of the software’s low cost), because it’s better than the software developer balking at the liability, no software being written at all, and having an army of staff every airport writing out boarding passes by hand. There are only a few softwares that aren’t this way - example the software in aircraft or nuclear power plants. That software is correspondingly extremely expensive. Most customers that can, choose to accept the risks so they can have the larger profits.