> Imagine being the product designer for this stuff:

Somewhat related, but the two architects I personally met, both were the unhappy kind: one was designing casinos, and the other prisons. It's like a real life Far Side cartoon of some sort, both doing exactly the opposite of all the things they learned in school.

Same for the chefs here I guess "Ok, remember what you learned in culinary school? Do exactly the opposite and you'll be just fine".

I have children, and it’s always more work for me to give them consequences for bad behavior than to let it slide. The examples given in the article for why prisoners are put on the nutraloaf program seem pretty reasonable, especially if it’s effective at curbing recidivism.

> especially if it’s effective at curbing recidivism.

There's nothing in the article examining its effect on recidivism. It's probably no more effective at that than jail in general, which is to say, there are much more effective interventions.

> Both men, and virtually every other Nutraloafer, straightened up enough to get back to the usual diet of oatmeal and processed bologna.

That’s not recidivism, which is the return to committing crimes after release. This is a punishment for bad behavior while inside the jail. It’s a method of behavioral control in real time. I doubt that anyone who gets out of jail is using the argument of, “maybe I’ll have to eat Nutraloaf if I go back to jail” as a factor in choosing to commit or not commit further crimes.

>That’s not recidivism, which is the return to committing crimes after release.

you raise an interesting point, and I did a bit of a dive into various dictionaries, new and old: chances of re-incarceration after release is an important aspect of criminology and public policy, but it's not built into the word recidivism.

recidivism is "backsliding", so it's more a case of "draw a line or a gradient, then measure recidivism across that line or gradient"

in the context of prisoners, it's probably a good idea to be clear about the sense of the definition chosen.

it's a small point and maybe a different word would have been more clear (because I agree, recidivism commonly refers to committing crimes again after being released from jail), but none of the definitions I found for recidivism were specific to release from jail - the definition seems to be committing offenses again after some type of intervention. in the case of the nutraloaf, you're already in jail and you commit some additional offense (say, starting a food fight). the article seemed to indicate that in most cases, the offender avoided doing the sorts of things that could get them back on nutraloaf - in my opinion, that meets the definition of recidivism.

Genuinely amazing that people can see grown adults in the custody of the state and compare them to their own kids.

I don’t know if that’s talking about how folks treat their kids vs how they see prisoners.

I see prisoners as people who haven’t yet learned how to act appropriately in the world, what ways are ok to treat others versus what isn’t ok. That’s the similarity I was trying to draw with children.

“You can’t hit people even if you’re frustrated” is a lesson in common, for example.

What about giving misbehaving kids Nutraloaf?

And:

> prisoners as people who haven’t yet learned how to act appropriately in the world

People selling and using drugs (non violent, for example) are people who haven’t learned how to act appropriately?

People in prison for dodging military service and drafts?

People in prison for having to steal for feeding their family?

These are the vast majority of people in prisons around the world. These first category being the majority of prisoners in America.

From the article:

> Or just get yourself tossed into Cook County Jail, where an inmate who causes serious food-related problems buys himself a one-way ticket to Nutraloafopolis. Get caught making homemade hooch in your cell toilet? You get Nutraloaf. Hurl food at a guard or stab someone with a spork? Nutraloaf.

The article calls out that people who are fed Nutraloaf in prison have committed additional offenses. Are you advocating that it’s ok to stab a prison guard if you feel that your incarceration was unfair?

while I don't really agree with op, you're stretching things here quite a bit.

a) it's a county jail, not state or federal prison. the people there wouldn't be hardened criminals there for extended stays. they'd mostly be, afaik, petty criminals and people waiting for trial dates. I suspect the spork stabbings aren't attempts at murder, particularly against prison guards (esp. considering the article says "stab someone" vs "hurl food at a prison guard").

b) the article, the part you quoted in fact, specifically calls out food-related problems, not "additional offenses". making prison wine and throwing food could probably be laboured into offenses if someone with power was vindictive enough, but those are really basic administrative issues and this nutraloaf is an administrative response.

Okay but are you going to give your children nutraloaf if they’re misbehaving?

I don't see why not, once they understand the reason.

> Are you advocating that it’s ok to stab a prison guard if you feel that your incarceration was unfair?

There are many different levels of feeling that something is “unfair,” but in the limit of being incarcerated with no crime, it’s indistinguishable by the incarcerated individual from kidnapping by a large, organized gang. Are you advocating that self defense against kidnappers is inappropriate?

People selling and using drugs aren’t the “majority of prisoners in America.” It’s about 1/5:

https://www.prisonpolicy.org/graphs/pie2023_drugs.html

Yes, they are. That what is appropriate is not the same as what is fair and just is not relevant to the question of whether prisoners are people who have not learned to behave appropriately.

There is only a slight correlation between being a grown adult and not being a child.

Is it really amazing? I mean, it’s the definition of custody.

Something tells me it probably doesnt meet your nutritional needs either.

I imagine it is lacking a lot of micronutrients and/or doesnt have them in a bioavailable form.

I've heard that prisons design meals that use lots or soy in theory to lower agression in inmates which can cause poor health outcomes. Although I've never seen any evidence that men shouldn't eat soy based diets, considering half the world's population uses it as a main source of protein this is probably bullcrap.

https://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/12/us/soy-diet-is-cruel-and-...

it would not surprise me thought that the type of person designing this sort of prison food would believe the whole "soyboy" myth.

People also get yoked in prison so there must be enough calories and protein available in the meals to allow for that sort of muscle building and maintenance.

Ingredients include carrots, cabbage, kidney beans, potatoes, dairy, and poultry, all blended up and baked. Sounds reasonably nutritious.

Probably more nutritious than the food most people in poverty are eating.

I love cooking and love eating new things but I absolutely hate having to figure out what to eat everyday without just resorting to crappy and expensive take out or fast food. Sometimes I just want to eat something without having to think about it and without eating something that will make me feel bad. I'd love to have a human equivalent of dog food to eat when I'm feeling lazy. A nutraloaf with a bit of salt and seasonings probably wouldn't be too bad. It's not a ribeye, loaded baked potato, and Caesar salad but it has all of your nutrients and about as close to whole food as you can get without actually being whole food. It could be sold frozen or in retort pouches (cooked in the pouch) or you could just make your own and freeze it.

I dont doubt it provides some nutrition I doubt that it provides fully complete nutrition.

Imagine being the designer of handcuffs: "Customer requirement is to for prevent effective use of a detainee's hands, without technically violating their rights."

Imagine being the designer of AA missiles: "Customer requirement is to destroy an aircraft containing human being, with maximum effectiveness and minimum cost."

Imagine doing any hurtful thing whatsoever, without the context of why it's being done.

The Nutraloaf is what they give to prisoners after pretty much every other punitive measure is attempted to correct their behavior. If there were a more humane measure, they'd have tried that already.

Edit: Imagine being the writer of a Hacker News comment: "Customer requirement is to bring the maximum amount of sense to a discussion, without violating any of the community's sacred cows."