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Re:Want to spot a deepfake? Look for the stars in their eyes by godelski on Friday July 19, 2024 @03:29PM (#41010194)
> It really depends whether it's "easier" for the network to learn an intuitive physics, versus a laundry list of superficial hacks that let it minimise loss all the same

The latter is always easier. Not to mention that the architectures are fundamentally curve fitters. There are many curves that can fit data, but not all curves are casually related to data. The history of physics itself is a history of becoming less wrong and many of the early attempts at problems (which you probably never learned about fwiw) were pretty hacky approximations.

> Hinton argues

Hinton is only partially correct. It entirely depends on the conditions of your optimization. If you're trying to generalize and understand causality, then yes, this is without a doubt true. But models don't train like this and most research is not pursuing these (still unknown) directions. So if we aren't conditioning our model on those aspects, then consider how many parameters they have (and aspects like superposition). Without a doubt the "superficial hacks" are a lot easier and will very likely lead to better predictions on the training data (and likely test data).

Re:Want to spot a deepfake? Look for the stars in their eyes by smallnamespace on Friday July 19, 2024 @09:05PM (#41013135)
The grokking papers show that after sufficient training models can transition into a regime where both training and test error gets arbitrarily small.

Yes, this is out of reach of how we train most models today. But it demonstrates how even current models are capable of building circuits that perfectly predict (meaning understand the actual dynamics) of data given sufficient exposure.

Re:Want to spot a deepfake? Look for the stars in their eyes by godelski on Saturday July 20, 2024 @05:20PM (#41020046)
I have some serious reservation about the grokking papers and there's the added complication that test performance is not a great proxy for generalization performance. It is naive to assume the former begets the latter because there are many underlying assumptions there that I think many would not assume are true once you work them out. (Not to mention the common usage of t-SNE style analysis... but that's a whole other discussion)

It is important to remember that there are plenty of alternative explanations to why the "sudden increase" in performance happens. I believe if people had a deeper understanding of how metrics work that the phenomena would become less surprising and make one less convinced that scale (of data and/or model) will be insufficient to create general intelligence. But this does take quite a bit of advanced education (that is atypical from a ML PhD) and you're going to struggle to obtain it "in a few weekends".

Re:Want to spot a deepfake? Look for the stars in their eyes by kromem on Friday July 19, 2024 @10:46PM (#41013628)
It really isn't easier at a sufficient complexity threshold.

Truth and reality cluster.

So hyperdimensional data compression which is organized around truthful modeling versus a collection of approximations will, as complexity and dimensionality approach uncapped limits, be increasingly more efficient.

We've already seen toy models do world modeling far beyond what was being expected at the time.

This is a trend likely to continue as people underestimate modeling advantages.