Yeah, the CIA wetwork branch should be the only people allowed to hold a gun

We're good, thanks

How can you look at the US compared to any other western country and honestly believe your current situation around guns is the ideal?

You don't get it, what about "make America great" implies that somebody thinks the country is in some "ideal" state? The answer to the guns problem is more guns.

And if your main guy gets shot, that's just an excuse to start the civil war you've been prepping for all these years.

or, and more than likely, people want guns to ensure they’re not the victim, given police only respond to crimes that have already happened and rarely prevent crimes.

this bigotry you have is why this happened today

Australia is an aberration (I can go into it in more detail if you'd like), but for the most part, the reason the US is (substantially) economically better off than most European countries (like the UK, where the GGP is from) is inextricably tied to the unique ethno-cultural characteristics (descended from a weird mish-mash of quakerism, scots-irish borderer culture, etc.) of the USA. Major relevant factors include a high degree of individualism, relatively high risk tolerance, relatively strong belief in property rights, etc. - all of which are coincident with a belief in and desire for public gun ownership.

I look at the US and I see one of the richest, most successful, and most impactful countries in the world (and not through any sort of low-liquidity arbitrage like being a tax haven).

Our crime rates are moderately higher than countries in similar wealth brackets, but this is entirely (and I mean, non-hyperbolically, entirely) attributable to factors besides our relatively high gun ownership rates.

The whole country is in a constant state of fear because of guns. Almost every justification I've seen is about a right to protect yourselves from others with guns but you can't seem to understand that most people in western countries never have to worry about this. I don't ever leave my house worried about being shot or being in a position where a gun would help.

You keep adding more guns talking about how you need them to protect yourselves from the other guns and things just keep getting worse and worse. You're on a downward spiral of gun violence and fear.

You talk about wealth but it's not evenly distributed at all and there is a reason your richest live in walled off communities and your poorest die early due to lack of access to preventative medicine and quality nutrition.

Wealth means little when you live with a constant threat of violence, it's like being a billionaire in China or Russia.

> The whole country is in a constant state of fear because of guns.

Most of us are not living in fear. If you say you rarely have to protect yourself then you’re defeating your own argument.

the problem is the rhetoric from left media. they need to calm down and quit driving deranged people to action.

>or, and more than likely, people want guns to ensure they’re not the victim, given police only respond to crimes that have already happened and rarely prevent crimes.

That is you in another comment in this post. You are literally describing living in fear. For most people in the west the worry about needing to protect themselves never factors into their life it just isn't something we need to worry about, this constant fear is a distinctly American issue.

If you consider South America to be America, I can say that Brazilians constantly live in fear despite strict gun control laws and criminals have no trouble obtaining whatever they want.

I'm referring to western countries above.

You are cherry-picking data.

Yes, otherwise I wouldn't have specified western countries. I'm comparing like for like.

What did I say about fear? Did you confuse posters?

>people want guns to ensure they’re not the victim

And you immediately think guns are the only thing that can make someone a victim? You’re uneducated on this subject and using a democratic attempt on a former republican presidents life to try yet again for more gun control.

do you think you’re going to be successful?

Of course I don't think guns are the only thing that can make someone a victim, but I don't think gun culture is helping anyone from being a victim. If you live your whole life afraid of being a victim of violent crime you are a victim whether or not anyone ever attacks you. That is a sad existence and it exists purely because of your fear based culture.

No, it won't be successful because America has shown time and time again it would rather watch classrooms of children be murdered than give up their guns. You'd rather have to think about mass shootings every time you go to the mall or church than give up any freedoms around your guns. You don't get over that kind of fear in a generation or two.

how about the near 70k justifiable homicides per year from guns? there’s 70k victims per year disproving your point.

you don’t get it. you want to ban guns and save 15k lives a year, yet drinking takes 140k lives a year. why aren’t you scared of alcohol? you have a higher chance of dying from a drunk driver or drinking yourself than being shot. so why don’t you focus on saving more lives?

Sounds like a made up number.

According to https://vpc.org/studies/justifiable23.pdf the FBI said there were 316 "justifiable homicides" in 2019.

>why aren’t you scared of alcohol?

Why do you assume I'm not? Alcohol is horrible, it's the only drug that isn't just socially acceptable but often feels socially required despite its dangers.

>so why don’t you focus on saving more lives?

I'm a human, I'm able to focus on multiple things in my life.

you’ll find different numbers for justifiable homicides and depending on the source. Your source here is a .org so can’t be trusted due to potential bias

if you actually concerned with saving lives then again, focus on what will save the most.

you keep continuing this conversation like you’re going to suddenly convince me to stop wanting to protect myself. additionally on HN people are set in their beliefs. you won’t convince anybody of anything here.

So those that buy drills are constantly living in fear that they have to drill a hole in a wall? Maybe they buy because: 1- they want to prepared to an eventuality; 2- it's a cool tool to have.

If you say "I bought a drill because I'm afraid one day I'll need to make a hole in the wall" then yes it is fair to say that person is living in fear of needing to make a hole in the wall.

If you say I bought a gun because I'm afraid of being a victim of crime then you are spending your whole life in fear of crime. It is hard for people who grow up in cultures like that to understand but most people in rich western countries don't live in fear of crime like that. It just isn't something most of us think about at all.

how about if you buy a gun because a family member was murdered and lefties decided to put them in jail for life instead of ending theirs, leaving the chance for escape to kill more family members. Is it then ok to defend yourself or should that person still be a victim because 12 people are too scared to walk outside because of a mental illness?

Depends. Is he white and straight?

So living in fear.

Yes but not of guns. See that’s called hoplophobia and would be irrational considering they can be used for protection. It’s also a mental disorder caused by environmental effects, so there’s that.

So, I am scared of being a victim especially with criminals being released from jail at an alarming rate. But with a gun it’s less of a concern.

But again, the inflammatory rhetoric, your bigotry around guns, is what divided the nation enough to cause this today.

I didn't say in fear of guns. I said Americans live their whole lives in fear of being victims. They think guns will help but they don't they make it worse.

The sad part is you can repeatedly say you live in fear in these comments while still actively denying you live in fear. Most people in rich western countries don't live like that, I don't ever worry about being a victim of a violent crime, it isn't on my radar and it isn't for almost everyone in Australia, Canada, the UK, and Western Europe. It just isn't something we have to think or worry about so that it why it is so weird watching Americans constantly be afraid but think their situation is good.

With guns your fear isn't lessened because easy access to guns means you also worry that the person you're arguing with on the street has one too so it's constantly a concern. Criminals in Australia, Canada, the UK, etc can still get guns of course but they are hard to get and expensive so they are almost never used for random crimes. They are almost always used for criminal on criminal violence.

People like you who refuse to accept that the american system isn't working is the problem because you refuse to accept that things need to change to improve.

I’m not denying I live in fear. I’m denying I and most fear guns. And it’s irrational to tell someone fearing for their life to not protect theirselves.

The American system is working fine, you see you have nothing to worry about except your hoplophobia. If a scary person shows up with a gun just call the police right?

> I’m not denying I live in fear.

>The American system is working fine

I honestly don't see how you can say both these things in the same comment. You do understand that basically no one in other developed western countries live in fear right? Living your whole life in fear is a uniquely american experience amongst that cohort and that is why we say the American system isn't working.

>If a scary person shows up with a gun just call the police right?

I literally have never worried about a scary person with a gun showing up at my house except when I lived in the US. It isn't on the list of things I'd even think about this year outside of conversations like this where Americans mention it as something they are genuinely afraid of.

ah so someone from outside the US trying to convince a native that their way of life is a problem. where have i heard this before?

look im scared of criminals, not inanimate objects. and if someone shows up with or without a gun to cause you harm what will you do? you’re asking everybody to be a victim to help resolve your mental health issue. see a professional!

Perhaps we should ban drills and other tools because the State will provide everything.

> The whole country is in a constant state of fear because of guns.

No, we're not. Nor has it been during my entire life. This sounds like the kind of stereotype only someone that doesn't live here believes... the kind of stereotyping that allows you to say, "we're so much better than them!" Oh sure, there are some that are and there are some places, though relatively few, where you probably ought to be.

But if gun availability is the root of the problem as you seem to be suggesting, you simply aren't thinking very deeply about the reality in context with history. Guns are more regulated now in US than at any other time in its history (OK, given some modest ebb and flow in laws passed and litigation over the past few decades). But do you really think that during its entire 248 year history the entire country has been in a state of constant fear? If increased gun prohibitions are the answer to lawlessness certainly that fear must have been terrifically more pronounced in the past and we should already have a highly regulated gun ownership regime. I find it highly unlikely that my ancestor's ancestors were shaken to their core for fear of being shot (and some of my family goes back to the 1850s wild west in Utah!)

Gun availability in the US is simply not a recent phenomena. They use to teach shooting courses in some public high schools no less. Suggesting that after a hundred years of ever increasing gun regulation that somehow guns are the problem is just silly.

It is hard to see when you live in the culture but as someone who lives outside it but has spent a lot of time living in the US you really are constantly in fear of violence. You can even see it in the comments by people here when gun restrictions are suggested.

So yes, for the whole history of america you lot have been in a state of perpetual fear of things you believe your guns will protect you from which have only shown to be made worse by your dependence on guns.

> economically better off

> inextricably tied to the unique ethno-cultural characteristics

> scots-irish borderer culture

Hate to break it to you but the scots-irish centers of checks notes West Virginia and Bakersfield, CA are not the economic powerhouses of the USA like the Northeast or CA.

Gun ownership areas and GDP in the US are almost entirely negatively-correlated.

The scots-irish were one of the 4 largest ethnic groups at the time of the declaration of independence and are arguably the single biggest differentiating factor from other anglo colonies like aus and NZ. Not sure where you're getting your demography from

Rural areas have higher GDP, yes, but not relevant

Roughly a third of convicts sent to Australia were Irish, a good number political (Fennians), in the 1891 census the Irish made up about 27 percent of the immigrants from the British Isles. Scotland accounted for roughly 12 percent.

Together the Scots-Irish block in pre 1900 Australia was comparable to that in colonial America circa Indpendance - some US States had a greater weighting than others.

The two countries were intertwined: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalpa_rescue

Irish and scots-irish aren't the same thing https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotch-Irish_Americans

> arguably the single biggest differentiating factor from other anglo colonies like aus and NZ.

Not the gigantic, habitable, natural resource filled landmass?!

I know about the Puritans, Quakers, and Cavaliers. I've read Albion's Seed.

Take a look at Scots-Irish demography: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotch-Irish_Americans#/media/...

You think that correlates to areas of higher US GDP?

Like Brazil, right? Very hard to own a gun unless you're a criminal.

Brazil isn't a Western country so no not like that at all.

Brazil and Latin America share culture, genes, language, history, religion, laws and much more with Europe. It's nonsensical to say that Brazil and Latin America aren't Western. What's your criteria? Income per capita? Your worldview is very much biased.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_world I'm referring to the countries in dark blue. Until the 80s you were under a dictatorship with rebel guerrillas/paramilitary organisations which later became gangs/pseudo governments in large parts of your cities. You're not really comparable.

> Until the 80s you were under a dictatorship with rebel guerrillas/paramilitary organisations which later became gangs/pseudo governments in large parts of your cities. You're not really comparable.

You have a very superficial understanding of Brazilian history.

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_world I'm referring to the countries in dark blue.

Countries in light blue are subgroups of the Western world and not groups apart. Just say rich/developed Western countries instead.

> You're not really comparable.

Of course not because you are cherry picking data. You want to compare a single ethnically diverse and large country (USA) with many ethnically homogeneous, small countries with much older population. You're an ignorant racist.

We are definitely not good.