News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Microsoft CEO of AI Your online content is 'freeware' fod... by EnigmaFlare on Saturday June 29, 2024 @06:46AM (#40829277)
I think people are getting confused between using something and redistributing it. If you train an AI or build a search engine index, or your browser caches a webpage, you're just using it, and it was put on the web so that it can be used, without any restrictions on what for (except perhaps when the permission to even download it is granted conditionally on how you use it as Suleyman mentioned). Copyright restricts copying, not private use. Since it's on the web, there really is an implied permission to use it privately for whatever you want.

The copyright issue only comes up if you publish the output of your model. But if the AI is (somehow) clever enough to never reproduce the source material in any way that counts as copying for the purposes of copyright, then there's no copyright problem making it available to the public.

Some artists assume they have more rights than they really do and that other people aren't even allowed to mimic their style.

Re:Microsoft CEO of AI Your online content is 'freeware' fod... by latexr on Saturday June 29, 2024 @07:04AM (#40829402)
> and it was put on the web so that it can be used, without any restrictions on what for

No, this is not true at all. A lot of things are put on the web with plenty of “restrictions on what for”. That’s why licenses exist. Creative Commons being an example of licenses with well defined limits on what you can and cannot do with the content.

Furthermore, a significant portion of content on the web was put there without permission: think piracy or revenge porn. AI systems have been trained on tons of pirated books.

> Since it's on the web, there really is an implied permission to use it privately for whatever you want.

There really is not. It’s just that if you’re using it privately then by definition no one else knows and thus no one can complain. It doesn’t mean that the creator condones whatever you’re doing.

> Some artists assume they have more rights than they really do and that other people aren't even allowed to mimic their style.

We’re not talking about “other people”. Another person mimicking your style is, to an extent, harmless because they’re also making a time investment to replicate your style. With the AI tools you can reproduce hundreds of knock offs in minutes.

We have to stop with this comparison of “what these AI systems are doing is fine because humans could also do it by hand”. It is not the same thing. Scale matters.

Re:Microsoft CEO of AI Your online content is 'freeware' fod... by MiguelX413 on Saturday June 29, 2024 @02:31PM (#40832532)
I struggle to see how scale would fit into the equation
Re:Microsoft CEO of AI Your online content is 'freeware' fod... by EnigmaFlare on Saturday June 29, 2024 @05:07PM (#40833361)
That material with restrictions on use would fall under the "grey area" he referred to. You're essentially not given permission to download/copy it if you're going to do the prohibited thing with it. But if it's just a random picture, there's an implied permission to download it and use it for yourself, since that's what it was put there for.
Re:Microsoft CEO of AI Your online content is 'freeware' fod... by yencabulator on Sunday June 30, 2024 @02:40PM (#40839108)
There is no such implied permission. You have fair use, that's it.

When something has a stated license, that only increases your rights to use it; the default is nothing allowed except fair use.

Re:Microsoft CEO of AI Your online content is 'freeware' fod... by EnigmaFlare on Friday July 05, 2024 @10:30AM (#40883120)
I'm trying to say that copyright restricts copying, not using. If you publish something on the internet, you implicitly give people limited permission to copy it so their browser can download it. Once it's on their computer, they're allowed to look at it with one eye closed if they choose, or even to modify it for their personal use or set it as their desktop background.
Re:Microsoft CEO of AI Your online content is 'freeware' fod... by yencabulator on Friday July 05, 2024 @10:42AM (#40883235)
The only reason you are allowed to modify a copyrighted image for personal use is because that's considered fair use. The fact that you found it on a website is irrelevant.

Copyright literally restricts using the material. If you buy a book, you cannot sell tickets to an event where you read it out loud.

Re:Microsoft CEO of AI Your online content is 'freeware' fod... by keiferski on Saturday June 29, 2024 @06:52AM (#40829319)
Your comment is a traditional understanding of copyright, pre-AI tools. The point is that this old model increasingly seems inadequate when a megacorporation can functionally copy and reproduce your work to an extremely close, but not exact, degree and then claim they did nothing wrong.
Re:Microsoft CEO of AI Your online content is 'freeware' fod... by EnigmaFlare on Saturday June 29, 2024 @07:00AM (#40829378)
Extremely close but not exact copying is already not allowed. Human artists have tried that.

Just because AI threatens to produce equally valuable material for much lower cost doesn't mean that's wrong. It just means those people got out-competed in the market. That's what the free market is for - to serve the consumers, not the producers.

Re:Microsoft CEO of AI Your online content is 'freeware' fod... by latexr on Saturday June 29, 2024 @07:11AM (#40829445)
> It just means those people got out-competed in the market. That's what the free market is for - to serve the consumers, not the producers.

For one, if you serve only the consumers at the detriment of the producers, soon you’ll have no producers left (or, more likely, a handful of extremely powerful ones which will stay stale as they have no reason to innovate).

For another, you appear to be arguing as if the “free market” is an unambiguous positive, when it very much is not. It doesn’t even adequately serve consumers, it serves businesses. The free market is what makes companies knowingly produce and sell harmful substances, like cigarettes or lead paint.

Re:Microsoft CEO of AI Your online content is 'freeware' fod... by EnigmaFlare on Sunday June 30, 2024 @10:39PM (#40842114)
If AI stagnates, then some human will out-perform it and be able to sell their work. The AI won't be able to generate competitive work because it's stagnant at a lower level.

I'm not arguing free market is all positive, just pointing out that the whole reason people see free markets as a good thing is because they benefit people (consumers). They have downsides too but those aren't the reason they're popular. Nobody wants free markets so they can get poisoned more easily.

Re:Microsoft CEO of AI Your online content is 'freeware' fod... by keiferski on Saturday June 29, 2024 @07:09AM (#40829429)
I don't even disagree that these tools aren't useful - I use them myself and agree that they allow for creating things for cheap that used to cost a lot.

The reason everyone is irritated at the tech companies is not so much because they made it cheaper to do these things, but because they seem to have such a smarmy, slimy attitude about the whole thing - these comments by the Microsoft CEO of AI as a prime example. They could have just trained their models on old public domain content, Wikipedia, or a million other things, but instead they want to justify raiding content that was shared for free under different expectations. This is only going to result in a locked-down, paywalled web that is pretty much the opposite of 90s net values.

Re:Microsoft CEO of AI Your online content is 'freeware' fod... by operae on Saturday June 29, 2024 @06:54AM (#40829336)
If you use the data to train a commercial model and distribute it how is that not infringement?

If I use a reversed Jay-Z sample in my music, I will still get sued. This is just a couple of orders of magnitude higher abstraction.

Re:Microsoft CEO of AI Your online content is 'freeware' fod... by EnigmaFlare on Saturday June 29, 2024 @07:03AM (#40829399)
I'm not talking about distributing the model, just its output, which won't be something the user can non-creatively transform into a Jay-Z sample.

However, if the model really can't regenerate its training data no matter how hard you try, then that would be fine too. I don't think anyone can really guarantee that now so that might be a problem, but it isn't necessarily a problem.

Re:Microsoft CEO of AI Your online content is 'freeware' fod... by yencabulator on Sunday June 30, 2024 @02:40PM (#40839097)
> and it was put on the web so that it can be used, without any restrictions on what for

Nope, copyright applies just like it always does.